**Survey on Masturbation: do you want to see the real thing, or acting?

[Vid Dude]

Abby has started a new Survey on the Members News page, asking the question of if you guys want to see genuinely real masturbation (i.e. minimalist, possibly dull-on-camera but good-on-video) or the fake stuff (i.e. all the action is there, insertions, fingers, body rubbing, writhing and sultry looks - but played up for the camera).

What we want to know is your genuine thoughts on the final product, and which would you rather see. We are dealing in images, here, after all, and that's what really counts in the end. Do the pics do it for you? And which ones?

As an example, Donna (http://www.abbywinters.com/members/donna/donna0004.htm) was genuinely going for it, but in Abby's images that isn't really obviously any different to Maria (http://www.abbywinters.com/members/maria/maria0006.htm), who was, we admit, faking it. Can you tell? Does it matter? Does seeing expressive stuff like Emma (http://www.abbywinters.com/members/emma/emma0008.htm) excite you more than half-hearted attempts like Anastacia (http://www.abbywinters.com/members/anastacia/anastacia0005.htm)?

We'd genuinely like to know. Enlighten us with your wisdom!

[Abby]

Several people have written to me recently, saying the site needs more "real" masturbation stuff, and it's something that I have thought about as well. My main contention is that it's hard to capture. And while I am all for hard work, keep in mind that most of these gals have never modelled nude before, let alone masturbated on camera - and let alone with any kinda reality to it. Simply paying them more is not going to make any difference.

Plenty of them can act well enough, tho. It's not hard for me to say, "Rub your clit, throw your head back, close your eyes, open your mouth". Would seeing pictures of that satisfy you, as a customer? It'd be very clear to me that she was not enjoying herself in the slightest, and may even resent me asking her to do something like that (most would never have done that before, nor considered it something they could, or should do), which would also show up on film.

But, technically, she'd be masturbating, and I'd be shooting it. Is that good enough? Or would you prefer to see the "real thing", even if it is a little less often?

Fact is, most wimmin don't writhe around on the floor, pout obscenely, look directly at a camera, lick their lips lusciously, groan loudly, etc, when they start (heck, even in the thick of) masturbating. That's the kinda thing hookers, and strippers do - not real people. They accentuate all the mannerisms of a woman enjoying herself, just to make it clear to (presumably dumb?) men what is going on.

I reckon that's insulting to both men and wimmin, but seems to be the way the world works. I have chosen not to photograph that. There are many (heck, most) sites out there that do this, and I don't really want to see aw.com become one of those.

While I am obviously biased, and I take pictures of what I like to see (which so far is in-line with what you like to see, otherwise you'd not be a member, right?), I can comprehend that some people might see this site as being "better" with more of that kinda material.

I really hope that's not what you guys want to see, but I'd like to run a survey to find the real answer. What I do with the results of the survey (ie, change the style of what is here on aw.com, or not) I have not decided yet.

abby

[iatros]

Abby

I joined this site because I like the way you photograph the girls "being themselves". They are often nervous and that comes across in the pictures. It gives them more "reality", at least that's the way I see it. If you can get them masturbating the way they feel comfortable doing it, that's heavenly. My wife doesn't move much when she's masturbating, but holding her when she comes is the most wonderful feeling and a great turn on. Grreat sex afterwards!!!http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gifhttp://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Don't get me wrong, I like pictures of women naked from the waste down, with spreads, insertions, rings - almost anything - and the more of it I can see, the better. So keep up the good work, and give us the views to look at in some pictures but the true action when the girls are masturbating. Donna's vids are really horny.

I suspect what people mean by "real" masturbation is really acting in any case. And women like to please us men, so they go along with the act for our enjoyment. (That's a dig at testosterone, not women!)

Do what you think is right and aim to atrract like minded followers. I'm one of them, and you have my vote.

[arsby]

From one point of view, I like it to be real.

I don't need her to moan or pout, I want her to enjoy herself. If she's initially uncomfortable with her hands "down there", it's okay for her to look tentative. If she starts really getting into it (Donna), so much the better. The "treat" picture, the one I really like, is the one where just for a moment she gets lost in the sensations -- she had been smiling or busy or looking bored, but now, maybe just for a moment, she looks dreamy, into it, her face flushed. Sally and Charlie have pics like that in their sets. (Others, too.)

On the other hand, I like it to be contrived.

I don't think women will naturally pull apart their pussy lips and show off the fascinating details of their genitalia during "real" masturbation, and I love looking at that stuff. Similarly, women don't naturally smile real brightly while spreading their legs and pulling apart their pussy lips. (Well, most women. Well, my wife doesn't.) And those might be my favorite shots of all.

The only thing that I can't abide is a women who has trouble smiling. Rose and Lux come to mind. Raven hardly ever smiles but is much prettier when she does.

[ruffie]

Abby,

I have thoroughly enjoyed the photos that you have produced thusfar. One thing that I have found intriguing is the very relaxed and comfortable appearance of your subjects. This is particularly apparent due to the high resolution of your photos. I think you have a special gift for photographing subjects and making them feel comfortable.

Not sure how we separate what is an act vs. what is "natural". Is it natural for one to be totally nude and have a camera snapping away? I think there is some "acting" involved in each of your photos. I agree that a beautiful, natural smile is more appealing than a blank expression. I must agree with many here who feel that if you deem a photo appropriate for your site, then there is something special about it. If you tell the model to masturbate and she doesn't appear inhibited and uncomfortable, the photos may be quite nice even if she is not truly into it. We must leave this to you. There may even be a model who is truly masturbating yet has a sense of discomfort with doing this on camera, the photo may reflect this. I think your line "Rub your clit, throw your head back, close your eyes, open your mouth" is kind of like a golf swing. If you try to think of too many things at once, you might just miss the ball entirely. If you say, "Do you think we could get a few photos with you stimulating yourself?" Then the model would be free to act naturally. I don't want to see "poses" that appear fake. Anyway, I've gone on and on, the bottom line is, I trust you, go for it.
Ruffie

[Abby]

Hi Ruffie

Thanks for your confidence. The results of that survey are very clear. Only one person has cited "acting", with the comment, "so long as it *looks* real". As most of us agree it's pretty much impossible to make it look real without being mostly real, I'll take his answer to mean that he wants the real thing.

Whihc means 100% of people want the real thing. I will continue to capture it when I can.

I agree that there is always going to be some amount of acting when a model poses, but I aim to capture models being as they are, rathjer than the character they are trying to project. Sometimes I succeed more than others. Ally, for example, became a different person when she was posing, due probably to her pro model training. Try as I might, I could not capture a pic of her as she really was, except maybe when she was on the phone discussing her next job with her agent.

Abby

[captainklutz]

Hi Abby,

That is why I don't particularly care for the professional model photosets that are so prevalent on the net. Most of the poses are stilted & unnatural. That is apart from the props, make-up & costumes. I would rather see the real person in everyday clothing & surroundings....complete with any flaws.

Cap'n.

[lizardhead]

I agree that real masturbation, when you can capture it, is the only way to go. Faked scenes are an insult to the viewer and model alike. The scene with Donna was magnificent. Emma's playful behavior with the dildo, on the other hand, where she made no pretense of coming, was quite erotic, and fun to watch. But if she ever were to come on camera, that would be terrific.

[Abby]

Lizardhead

That's a good point, and pretty much waht we're going for. As in the videos of Uma and Sandra, if we cannot get real "girl girl action", we'll be happy with two pretty young naked gals having fun.

Abby

[Talking Figleaf]

Abby I came looking for a place to ask about this very thing after looking at Emma's gallery Page 10 (http://www.abbywinters.com/members/emma/emma0010.htm). Emma's description says "masturbates with a pink dildo" and I meant to ask if you didn't mean she was just experimenting with it. And by coincidence I was going to compare it to Donna's introspective and boring looking, thus very authentic looking, thus exciting looking masturbation.

But you got there first. "Read first, ask questions later."

I think the question's already settled and I don't have to worry about fakers, which I really don't much like in real life or in photos. I'd much rather hear that the model was experimenting, practicing, challenging herself.

Actually, you know what I'd really like? I'd like you to tell us if you asked her to try and she really tried, like when you say she tries to pee. Otherwise I'd rather see what went on in the Susie and Nikki video where Susie's sort of saying "well, this is different but it's kind of great" and Nikki's more along for the ride without either goofing around or trying to act other than how she feels.

By the way , going back for a second look I pretty much found the answer to my question about Emma here (http://www.abbywinters.com/members/emma/emma173.jpg). :-)

figleaf

[Abby]

Hiya, TFL

What you're after, I believe, will be featured in our masturbation vids. There's some discussion of that in the news archive. More info to come soon.

a

[retsbew2]

Chiming in on this subject, I have to say that it is much more exciting to me to see a girl masturbating "for real". This isn't always easy to tell in photos; on video one can usually discern the difference. But in answer to your query, I would rather know (and I'll take your word for it) that what we are seeing in the pix is authentic, not posed, and if that means less frequent depictions of full-on masturbation, then so be it.

Of course it's nice to see a girl exploring herself and playing around (esp. with her panties still on) without it having to lead to real self-gratification. Better just to see her doing what she feels comfortable doing than having her act like all the other phony models available from a million other sites.

I would say that the difference comes across to discerning viewers and I encourage you to keep with your already excellent standards of presenting girls in a way that leans more toward the natural and unscripted. I know there won't always be a clear line between "posed" vs. "natural", but I definitely joined because of and encourage you to favor the latter.

[As a side note: having the sound of the girls' voices, moans, breathing, etc. on the videos would be *far* preferable than just some overdubbed music track which I invariably mute out. This would be *especially* true for any footage of a girl masturbating as the associated sounds of self-pleasure are a major part of the turn-on IMHO.]

[Abby]

hiya, retsbew2

Sounds like you'll love the masturbation vids we'll be releasing soon, as well. This is from the Feb 18th update (all the site new is archived and searchable at http://www.abbywinters.com/archive.htm).


Plenty of people provided feedback on the idea of masturbation videos (we ran a survey on them last week, if you missed out voting, please head on over to the surveys page - we'd love to hear your comments).

A common opinion was, "well, they sound interesting, but I'd want more info, first". Of course you would, we're not going to ask you to pay for anything you know nothing about. But we were after expressions of interest. Based on your feedback, and chatting to other people, we've come up with the following:

Each model reaches a real orgasm, or comes as near as damnit The videos will feature three models per tape, around 30 minutes per model. The video is shot in a very non-intrusive way (the model is usually alone with the camera) Live sound on all of the footage The technical quality is very high (all digital, shot on miniDV, edited on computer, mastered to DV tape, duplicated to analog VHS as a last step) We probably won't be releasing DVD's at first. DVD's are MUCH more expensive to duplicate (glass masters, etc), and have minimum orders of 500 or so. Until we get a better indication of how it's gonna sell, we're not going to take that risk. Sorry. Tapes will be sold in NTSC format only at this stage. Sorry. We'll most likely sell through lezlove video, who are also distributing out girl-girl tapes (still in production - VidDude is editing like a man possessed). LLV have a truly awesome site, with detailed reviews of the best GG porn you ever did see. Of course, our stuff will blow all the competition out of the water. ;) Pricing will be around $35US per tape, not including postage and handling. To be confirmed. We will have downloadable samples, and sample footage on other tapes we sell Estimated release date is April some time. Pre-ordering your copy will be an option.

The possibility of being able to download the entire footage via this (or any other) site is not realistic. Issues from my feasibility study are discussed in detail on the boards, on this thread.

abby

[retsbew2]

These sound excellent! Thanks for listening to our comments and creating something accordingly. I can hardly wait to order them!

[Talking Figleaf]

You know, it occurred to me that I'd have a hard time getting off if I had to try masturbating while squatting on a kitchen counter with my knees up by my ears. I don't do it that way at home. I'm guessing this is also true for most models.

Do you ever ask them how they do it when they're not doing a porno shoot? My copy of the Hite Report is somewhere in a box and might be a bit out of date anyway. But for instance I remember roughly half of the women she surveyed said they masturbated face down. Quite a few of those masturbated by rubbing against a pillow, a folded towel or blanket, their hand, or something like a teddy bear (!).

I'm not sure it would make for great photos but it would make great images (if that made sense.) Even if it didn't work photographically it seems like letting someone wind her clock in the way that works best for her might warm her up more for when it's time to hand her the toys.

Given a choice I'd rather watch someone do it her way than the cliche way.

figleaf

[Abby]

Hiya, TFL

yes, I have the Hite Report as well, and while it's been ages since I read it, i recall that figure. Plenty of the models we come in contact with given a choice (and assuming it comes up in convo, and it often does) masturbate face down.

However, this makes for boring stills and video, so we ask them if they could possibly adapt their technique to a face up position.

Using large props like a pillow, etc, again defeats the purpose somewhat of shooting vision at all, but facial expressions can be telling, so maybe it IS worth it? This really is Elvaar's baby as he says elsewhere, and while he has some great ideas about it all, I don't think that this is one of them.

But I will be sure to chat to him about it, cos while it's not explicit, it sure is intimate, and that's what those Wank Vids are going for.

Good idea!

a

[elvaar]

Figleaf,

Yes I'm on your frequency! We stressed to the models that we want to see it 'just like you do it at home' and to specifically NOT do anything they wouldn't normally do. We asked them whether they thought they'd be able to relax enough for the camera and if they thought not, we didn't try. We also told them that it'd be great if they climax but that it was by no means necessary, and we'd rather they didn't at all, than fake it. One of the girls straight away told us she masturbates on her tummy so we just made sure the camera was angled right to catch it.

We generally set them up on a bed because it's a familiar and comfortable setting, and also happens to be pretty good for capturing video and sound. We lashed out on a good shotgun mic which captured the most awesome sound (from both ends of the model!) that I've ever heard on erotic videos.

But some girls are real troopers, but it's frustrating that some of the models just don't get it, no matter how many times you spell out REAL. It's always the ones who want to be stars who are the problem. One kept rolling her eyes and moaning, and We even had one girl go cross-eyed, which takes significant effort and could hardly enhance the process for her! Needless to say, those tapes won't get released, or maybe cut-down versions on the B-section.

As for the teddy bear, have you seen Jo-anne's pictures? Kinko the Koala has been poking his shiny little nose in secret places...

[anonymous]

Suddenly I am very jealous of Kinko the Koala http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[arsby]

I remember a description of how they got (then immature) Brooke Shields to do the facial grimaces for the love scenes in the Blue Lagoon -- they squeezed her toe until it hurt. Maybe you can try that on your models.

I'd love to see the outtakes from those masturbation videos, esp. the one where the model goes cross-eyed.
Didn't they have a girl go cross-eyed during a love scene in one of the Naked Gun comedies?

[Talking Figleaf]

This (http://www.abbywinters.com/members/charlie/charlie091.jpg) looks sexier than this (http://www.abbywinters.com/members/anastacia/anastacia103.jpg). If letting them practice upside down for a bit leads to the first look when you start shooting for real then go for it.

You can always tell me to shut up. It sounds like your typical photo session lasts about an hour including setup and wrap up, and if it's like any other kind of production environment chances are there's not a lot of opportunity or incentive for models to warm up before hand.

Aside #1: Aerobics classes also take an hour but people still take time to warm up and stretch out. One wonders what stretches you should do before a porn shoot anyway. Stretching, the 20th Anniversary edition (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0936070226/qid=1018416042/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_67_1/103-4664019-5308656) isn't any help even though they have stretches for nearly every other sort of activity.

Aside #2: I suppose this topic seems to be more about masturbation videos than still photography. Videos are nice. Your downloadable shorts are nice. But for pragmatic reasons (e.g. our only VCR player is in the living room, video resolution still isn't that great, you're not planning to issue DVDs, etc.) I'm more interested in what goes on in the still photos Abby takes.

Assuming you're still reading this I've got a practical question: Where do these videos fit in the overall shooting schedule? Does Abby schedule a photo shoot afterwards? Before? Or are these separate events?

figleaf

[Abby]

Hiya, TFL

ha! You're a class act!

I agree that Charlie can give a better smouldering look than Anastacia - some models are just not able to, or are too nervous to relax into it. I reckon that's part of the... thrill. A nervous model adds another dimension to the shoots, an extra bit of realism.

And a nervous model will not be able to give us a realistic *or even a near facsimile) of masturbation, so we'd never ask Anastacia to do one of the masturbation videos, for example.

Taken with that in mind, I think the pic of Anastacia is more endearing than the one of Charlie - extroverted girls like Charlie are common, especially on amateur websites (plenty of sites are based around just such a model as a "host"). Girls like her, if you knew her in real life, are just the type to do this kind thing. Just cos it's expected does not make it any less good, but girls who you'd NOT expect to do this kinda thing have a definite edge, IMO.

We do do warmup stuff, but you never see it here (sometimes on the Backstage). They generally make for boring pics. Not really stretching, tho, more like getting a model acclimatised to the lights, how I shoot, and so on. I guess in the same way a comedian "warms up" a studio audience for a TV show, ya know?

Gotta say, good research on the book thing http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif Maybe we can release something, "the Abby Winters instructional Guide to efficient and rewarding Masturbation (interactive DVD included)"? Elvaar?

I would imagine that the "joy of sex" kinda books would advise of warm ups to do before sex. I believe Arsby has a much dog-eared copy, perhaps he could check for us?

Re, wank vids, I have not shot stills of the video shoots - we figure it'd be too intrusive, would put them off their game. We do ask them to do some stuff (if the model seems into it, like Charlie) for stills sometimes, tho. There are quite a few models on the site where this works very well, Tia and Donna come to mind right away. Check out the "real masturbation" section on the Fetish page for more.

Oh, and yes, I always read what you write, even if i do not have time to reply in detail (especially lately, as we're getting ready for another batch of shoots (two days away - the advance team went up there today).

The video you see on the site generally was shot either while I shot stills (that's where the model is often looking), or we take turns, 20 mins stills, 20 mins video; or, strip to naked stills, strip to naked, video. If we have a specific video sequence in mind (like a wank vid), we'll set aside time for that, either directly after the stills shoot, or on another day.

a

[arsby]

I threw out my copy of Joy of Sex because it didn't have color pictures, so I can't help you there.

I also can't help you with women's preparations for sex.

However, for the guys...
http://www.askmen.com/love/love_tip/22_love_tip.html

[Talking Figleaf]

No color in the Joy of Sex? I thought they had a whole section in the middle, but maybe that was in the sequel. I'm pretty sure it was the same models though.

I may have run across mention of this a few days ago but one of my fond memories is of a couple of friends who'd just got together and they'd just discovered the book. They basically spent their weekends going through it and trying everything they read until they'd done the whole thing. They'd just pop out of their bedrooms every now and then to pee or grab a drink of water. The guy had grown up in some pretty out of the way parts of Louisiana and Florida and every now and then while they were taking a break he'd pop his eyes wide and volunteer a remark like "Goddamn it, Fig, most folks don't even know it'll bend like that, and if it did they'd of never thought it would fit like that neither, but it feels just about as good as hell!"

If I ever did my own alternative porn video I'd probably try something like using the Joy of Sex as a script. I'd try to find the same kind of innocent but delighted actors too. I miss being around people like that. Hey Abby, if you do any boy-girl shoots how about saving me all the hassle? Even if I could pull the resources and models together I don't think I'd ever get the set lit right anyway. (This is pretty far off topic. Hmm. Does laziness count as a fetish?)

figleaf

[arsby]

Nope, TFL, laziness isn't a fetish.
For some of us it's a way of life.
For others, it's an *aspiration*.

My video will be a riff on something you mentioned before -- a group of girls taking sex lessons.

[bobby]

What really moves me is genuine pleasure. I understand that it must be very difficult for a girl (or two girls) to get it going in front of a camera. But when it works its great. Like Annabel, my absolute favourite. But please, the girls have to talk first, tell about themselves, then action. Thats the ultimate mix.

Rob

[sweatyfox]

Real not acting please! I understand the problems of doing it in front of camera and overacting (moans etc) but the more observant member will surely be satisfied by such tell tale signs as flushing, quiet sighing, heavy breathing etc (a la Joanne). Jamie for instance showed you don't have to be loud and moaning for it to be sexy. So real but I agree with you Rob that a build up is nice. Its good to actually 'meet' the girl instead of her just going straight into it. That way its more sexy cos we actually know more about her.

SF

[angelus]

It has to be real everytime, and the vids have to be a true reflection of the model. It is the getting to know the models which makes the vids these the best videos on the net IMHO. It provides an intimate insight into the given model, their experiences, their true character and personality.

[kc0kdh]

Add my vote for the real thing. Acting is better than nothing, but nothing beats the real thing!! One of the things I like about AW.com is my belief that what I see is real, if that were to change I would be horribly dissapointed. http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/sad.gif

[Vid Dude]

Everything on aw.com is totally real and genuine.


Except for the fake stuff.

[kc0kdh]

Thanks for the confirmation Vidman. To briefly tell my story, I’m been a coinsure of erotic art (porn) for a very long time, and aw.com is the ONLY site that I’ve ever subscribed to. (I may have to start a thread on that) http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[kc0kdh]

LMAO....I just noticed the little 'except for the fake stuff' at the bottom of your message. OK, so let me rephrase, as long as I think it's real and genuine....... http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[bobby]

If you tell me Annabel was faking I go kill myself, and u wouldnt wanna loose a member now, would you?

Rob

[timbit]

Real for sure, even if it is not working or the model is distracted. I would rather see the model give a try, then look up and perhaps say "This is just not working!" A real moment on film, far better than that awful moaning you see in cheesy videos.
Of course, like Kc0kdh says, "as long as you think it's genuine", but I like to think I can tell -- sorta like fake boobs!
How would you ever know if you had seen real looking implants (if they even exist) unless you had prior knowledge? If you could tell then they are not truly real looking. And if someone had truly real looking fakes, why would they tell anyone?
This is starting to feel like a chicken and egg routine.

(BTW in case anyone is interested, the egg came first. It was the result of an encounter between two not-quite-chickens.)

Timbit

[Vid Dude]

[B]I would rather see the model give a try, then look up and perhaps say "This is just not working!" A real moment on film, far better than that awful moaning you see in cheesy videos.In Annabel's redux video, she did have a moment just like this. Only... her vernacular was somewhat more colourful. So I cut her turn-of-phrase out.

That's why she swaps toys partway through.

[catwoman]

I would have preferred it if you to did not edit out the "colorful" vernacular, it probably would have added to the vid and would have only made it all the more real/fun. Anyone watching a nude girl playing with a vibrator, shouldn't be offended by an off-color word or phrase. Besides, we've all uttered colorful phrases in similar situations.

[timbit]

This is almost surreal. A porn website that censors colourful language.
It must have been a really naughty word!

Timbit

[Vid Dude]

It was a rude word indeed. Made us laugh, though.

It also broke her out of the 'role' she was playing of 'girl alone in bed' especially since she acknowledged us first.

[sweatyfox]

You mean a rude word like 'bum' or 'titty'? Or something even ruder like 'flange' or 'furry cup'?

I hope she didn't say something really filthy like 'vagina' or 'sexual intercourse'!

SF

[timbit]

How about "Wankel Rotary Engine".

TB

[Jamie]

Timbit I can guarantee that a girl has faked it while having sex with you with out you knowing. I know this because I do it all the time and very rarely has anyone caught me out or second guessed me. (mind you this has been happened a bit)

Now don't get me wrong I love having sex and I really enjoy it I just don't cum much.


With Annabel I'm sure that kinda stuff could be used in back stage video, That is if Vid dude has enough time to go through all the video we have find all the good stuff and the arrange it all neatly together so it doesn't come across to scattered, we might get to see it.

Jamie

[catwoman]

I remember reading a statistic years ago that 70% of all women admit to faking an orgasim at least once.

Now...Jamie...let's have no more of this faking. That little white lie can really be a problem if you later decide to have a longer relationship. Then, you have to admit that you've been faking it or become resigned not to cum much and keep on faking it.
Better to say that you enjoy sex and don't cum much and that's ok. Then if you feel like cumming, whip out the vibrator, either alone or with a friend. A little communicating and you might cum more...and more...and...

If you don't want to take my advice, check out "How to Fake an Orgasim". It is a very funny short one shot monologue that uses easy to follow instructions to show how to fake intimacy with simple facial expressions, breathing, cheesy dialogue and upper body gestures. You can view if for free on http://www.planetout.com under popcorn video.

[Roops]

[B]I can guarantee that a girl has faked it while having sex with you with out you knowing. I know this because I do it all the time
Arrrrrgh!!!!!!! I don't believe I'm reading this!!!!!!!!!!!

Jamie, a word in your shell-like, NEVER, EVER fake it!! It sorta rewards poor performance, know what I mean? http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif Seriously, Catwoman is right, it could create a lotta, lotta probs later on. One of the reasons why Roops and I are so (smugly) sexualy compatible is not because we are titans in bed (or anywhere else!) but because we (gasp!) talk to each other and have done so since day one of our sexual relationship (long may it continue!!!!) We each know what the other likes and what turns each other on, and just as important what doesn't (in which case we try to compromise)

And boys, don't be upset if your woman doesn't shake the plaster off the ceiling with her screams of ecstasy. As strange as it may seem there are other reasons why we girls have opened our thighs for you. Ok, there are a few girls who have gone to bed with you just for the shag and if that's the case, Hey! you pulled and struck lucky! Its not your fault you're piss-poor in the sack......err what I meant was that you can't possibly know what greases up a girl on a one-night knee-trembler at the back of the Pig and Lion car-park.

Byee!!

R Roops (Mrs)

[Talking Figleaf]

Oh what's the big fuss about? Haven't any other guys ever faked it with a partner? Shit happens sometimes, why rain on her parade? Like Jamie said, it's not like sex is that much less enjoyable without having one. And I don't mean orgasms aren't great, trust me, I'd get cranky if I simply stopped having them. But sex without orgasms isn't even a little bit bad. I mean at least *I* wasn't lying when I've told a partner that given a choice I'd rather just undress her, kiss her for hours, and eat her till her eyelids fluttered than doing nothing at all. And if I got to undress her, kiss her for hours, eat her till her eyelids fluttered, and then topped it off with a slow comfortable screw... well, it's even nicer than staying home sorting socks.

And if every now and then I suspect she was faking I assume she wasn't *hating* it. Instead I accept it quietly it as a complement and a favor I need to repay sometime. And when or if she catches me out she does the same for me.

I say this because I heard Jamie and believe her. It's not stopping her, it wouldn't stop me either.

Hope that's not "over sharing" as they say in California. :-)

figleaf

[Talking Figleaf]

And by the way, same goes for masturbation on this site. I watched Bev (http://www.abbywinters.com/viewbio.php?shootid=295) carry on for a bit in video. She certainly looks like she's getting herself going even if I don't think she actually gets herself off. If that's all she can do then orgasm or not I'd rather watch her do that all day long than have her waste 30 seconds of her time and mine pretending.

Hope that makes sense.

figleaf

[catwoman]

>b{If that's all she can do then orgasm or not I'd rather watch her do that all day long than have her waste 30 seconds of her time and mine pretending.}

TF: Exactly. That's why you shouldn't fake orgasms or want your partner to pretend in real life. Most of the fun is getting there, so if you feel close enough to someone to have sex with them, you should be able to be communicate, that the orgasm isn't always your goal in sex and that great sex often occurs without orgasm.

[Talking Figleaf]

Funny thing about real life vs. porn though. When you're faking it in real life (and I don't mean "oh god, oh god, oh god! stuff by the way) you're encouraging and synchronizing and, well, almost cheerleading your partner into a nicer experience -- than if, say, you said "turn out the light when you're done, hon, I'm going to sleep. :-) Plus unless he/she's faking it too it's not like your partner's going to review video after to see if your skin's really flushed and your eyes really closed.

When you fake it in porn you're just, well, faking it. There's nobody else around to impress so you ought only to do what actually feels good. I might add that at that point it's the pornographer's job to distract you from it no more than absolutely necessary. I like the way the AW folks handle that very much.

figleaf

[catwoman]

Sorry, FL, still think its better not to fake it and I don't think that equates being a partner that would be so inconsiderate to say "turn out the light when your done, hon, I'm going to sleep". If you don't make cumming your focus, it becomes a non-issue and you are free to explore your sexuality and senuality in different ways. You can still encourage and synchronize with your partner, one doesn't necessarily exclude the other. Alot of the BDSM that I am into involves alot of negotiation before a scene. That level of communication about what you want, will do and won't do adds alot to the experience. Mind you that not all BDSM is about cumming or genital sex, but a focus on a pleasurable experience. My g/f used to cum really quickly with multiple orgasms. (I was REALLY jealous.) However, she's been ill now for quite some time on meds that make cumming an infrequent surprize. I'd rather she be honest and then I can please her in any way of her chosing, whether that be washing her hair or tribbing for an hour just cause it feels good.

[Talking Figleaf]

No problem, Catwoman. Your preference is totally valid and more honest too. I have a bit more tolerance than you might for occasional dramatic fiction. In your partner's case where you both know meds are keeping her from getting over then you're absolutely right there's no sense faking it. Better to just enjoy what you've got.

I ought to add that I wish your partner the best and hope she regains her health.

figleaf

[catwoman]

Figleaf: Thanks for your well wishes. Unfortunately, we just hope to keep her on an even keel. In the meantime, we still manage to have a heck of alot of fun and take each day as it comes.

[sweatyfox]

I should also wish you 2 the best Catwoman. What with the care and affection you and you partner seem to share and the fact you are helping out this girl in Ohio, I admire your unselfishness (or should that be selflessness?). Not that I am trying to make out that either your partner or this girls are 'charity cases', in fact you are obviously as lucky to have these special people in your life as they are to have your caring and kind person in theirs. Your partner sure seems to bring out the best in you, so its good to know you're having fun and 'living it large' as we say here.

SF

[catwoman]

SF: Ugh! Don't make me sound so nice, it will entirely ruin my reputation. (How am I every going to let anyone let me chain them up, blindfold them and drip hot wax on them now? http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif )

[Talking Figleaf]

"How am I every going to let anyone let me chain them up, blindfold them and drip hot wax on them now?"

Smile sweetly and say please? :-)

Actually if I were going to really get into topping I think I'd go for the "more in sorrow than in anger, this hurts me more than it does you, I know it hurts and I'm sorry but you really did forget to count so we'll have to start over" approach. With soft-looking wooden nipple clamps (http://static.zoovy.com/img/willowtree/W180-H180-Bffffff/pc1001_woodclips_4), natural herb-dyed hand-braided silk ropes, fresh nettles instead of hot wax, rose and acacia thorns for piercing and scratching, and birch twigs soaked in spring water.

Hmm. Or maybe not. But you have to admit that way would be more *perverse* than the usual chrome and black leather routine. :-)

figleaf

[sweatyfox]

Okay just this once, no more til tomorrow.

Catwoman, just pretend it's for a film project or college experiment, like the rest of us do! No, but seriously, sorry if I made you sound too nice, is there anything nasty and filthy I can say when I return, to bring out the BDSM side of you?

SF

[catwoman]

TF: You'd be surprized about the number of "things" that you can have fun with. Just have to be careful what you are using. (The scene with P & S in deviations...you can see the mistake they made about putting duct tape on hair...ouch!) You, however, have some very good ideas. I'll have to save them for spring though, not much plant life dead or otherwise around this time of year up north. (We had snow yesterday.)

SF: No need to say anything as it really doesn't take much...my g/f and I started planning a scene yesterday morning for the long weekend XOXO. Nothing like these cold winter weekends.

[sweatyfox]

Catwoman, enjoy your scene, keep each other nice and warm during these cold weekends. I'm sure you'll turn up the heat.

SF

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well i had some login issues and this response to this thread is a bit late but i had to jump in and give my 2 cents anyway, even if the horse is dead.

catwoman, i couldn't agree with you more. communication is absolutely the most important thing about any kind of relationship whether it be sexual, familial, business or anything else. and faking pleasure undermines communication. it's soooo much better to talk things out with your partner and make new discoveries than having to feel like an orgasm is the necessary "end" to every sexual encounter. i think that the whole process of sex, the whole experience itself is the turn-on and an orgasm is only one part of that process, albeit a fun one http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/wink.gif

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