To CC Bill or not to CC Bill?

[sybianman]

Hiya Abby / VidDude,

You mentioned on a previous posting that you are looking to leave CC Bill "at the earliest opportunity". One thing to consider; you should bear in mind that some people (myself included) are far less inclined to submit their credit card details to an unknown billing service, & this can influence a person's decision on whether to join a site or not.

From my experience, there are only really two or three billing services that can be classed as well-recognised, CC Bill, iBill, & possibly Lancelot Security. Any deviation from these three might have a negative impact on potential subscribers.

Something to think about.

[kumaraguy]

Paypal maybe ?

[timidly]

I don't subscribe to sites that don't "feel" right, and the use of CCBill or iBill is a very positive sign.

CCBill also seemes relatively consumer friendly. It's a whole lot easier to retrieve account info from CCBill than iBill.

I imagine it must look a lot different from AW's side of the transaction...

[Vid Dude]

I have to agree, here. I'm more comfortable signing up to a CCBill site just because of a reassurance of reliability and security. So a similarly recognised and reputable company would be preferable.

[Abby]

Hi guys

Paypal is not an option, as it is not designed for this kinda thing. By all reports, iBill is worse than CCBill (slow problem solving, inflexible, expensive, etc).

What I had in mind was using Commonwealth Bank, the largest of the Australian banks, and third party member management software. No one is going to care about the software, but I can understand the concern with the billing company.

I don't think that CCBill is THAt well known, tho. I think that if I had the Commonwealth Bank, Australia logo pasted everywhere, it'd be a bit MORE repsectable than CCBill, even. Surely a bank is going to be more responsible than company that has a website as it's name, ya know?

Abby

[kumaraguy]

Well I guess that some of us would know that it is not the "Mickey Mouse Bank from Timbucktoo" http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif
But sounds fine to me tho...LOL !

[artful]

From what I have heard the biggest issue with porn site payments is the charge backs. Services like ccBill are very experienced with this market and (claim to) have a sophisticated heuristic for filtering out applications from people who habitually attempt to charge back after using a site or use stolen credit cards. That list of suspicious accounts is their justification for the big cut they take.

I wonder if Commonwealth Bank will have the same level of sophistication? Do they have much experience in this market?

Changing is a big gamble, especially since all your existing membership would have to re-register.

You said elsewhere that over 80% of aw.com members are in the US. Would it be simpler and more trustworthy to use a US bank?

The other big issue is where the credit card numbers are kept. If you keep them on your servers you'll become a hacker target, big time. One of my clients took over credit card billing themselves and had no end of hassles. They got control but were constantly worrying about losing data and getting on a Visa/MasterCard black list, which would put them out of business.

[Abby]

Existing members would not have to re-register. My plan would be to let each person's account lapse naturally (most people do not stay for longer than two months). All new signups would be on the new system.

Yup, using a US bank is an option, I guess, tho I am not sure what it gains me, really. You guys seem to have hundreds of banks over there, every city has it's own. I guess you also have chains, so maybe I could hook up with one of them. It takes a lot of phone calls and so on, but using a US bank means I'd have to open a US bank account, for which I'd need a US address (and be subject to US taxes, perhaps?).

A huge majority of my expenses are in Australian dollars (only expense that is not is the hosting), so it makes sense to keep it Australian for those reasons. We only have five major banks over here. There are a few small, "private" banks, but they don;t do the internet stuff.

In actuality, CCBill are a a LOT less serious about credit card processing than they claim to be (and they don't claim to be that good any more). They DO have a handy thing where people who make "a lot" of chargebacks on some kinda blacklist (or rather their CC does), but I am not convinced of it's effectiveness. And it gives a flase negative quite often. CBA do have some stuff like that, but obviously not targeted at the porn market (which is a large slice of CCBill's work).

I would have NOTHING to do with CC numbers, nor do I want to. I agree, total security risk. That's why I'd pay the CBA to take care of that for me.

Abby

[artful]

I'm surprised (disappointed) that the average member stays 2 months or less. They're missing a lot! I have done the same thing myself, most recently with TeenFlood: I downloaded all the interesting models but won't renew, even though they offer about one new model per day.

I think this is the subject of another thread: building member loyalty. I did note that Teen Flood offers a loyalty discount after (I think) 6 months and one year. I think they use iBill which must support the feature.

Regarding the choice of bank, I think the only reason is comfort for US members (a parochial lot, say I, an Englishman living in California at great risk of attracting flames). Yes, the US has thousands of banks, but a few mega banks have a nationwide brand. I think CitiBank is the biggest. I think they may be too conservative to offer services to a porn site: in general they are not especially innvoative. If they did offer such a service, they'd probably hide it under another name so as not to "pollute" their brand.

So, given the other considerations, it looks like Abby's choice may be a wise one as it gets her AUS$ into her bank account with minimum hassle. I'd just hate to see Abby and VideoDude spend hours and $s converting the site (supporting 2 authentication systems in parallel for example) only to find that signups and retention are lousy because of potential member discomfort.

This may be an argument for prototyping the new payment system with a new site that Abby has been thinking about. Keep aw.com on CC Bill until you see the effect on signups with Commonwealth Bank with the new site.

However, since Abby has "had it" with CC Bill, that might not meet her objective of moving fast.

Also, I have reservations about the wisdom of establishing separate sites, but again, that should be the subject of a separate thread that I have been meaning to start - "Brand Extension as it Applies to Internet Porn Sites".

Heavens, I sound like I am studying for a MBA with a specialization in pornography. I would enjoy such a class.

[Abby]

Hi

Yup, retention is a big issue for me. aw.com is running at or a little below the industry standard, currently. I have thought of a few ways to increase retention, but none of them I like. One option is to periodically remove new stuff on the site, and bring it back at a random time (several sites do this).

That way, people cannot leave and come back in a few months, and catch up on what they missed (as they do now), cos stuff they miss, they may miss forever. That's manipulative, but may increase retention.

Teenflood, at adding one new model a day (they buy some stuff from me, BTW), are adding 30 new models a month. I am adding four. No way I can compete with that! They also charge twice as much, but have much lower quality pictures.

He does not have the overheads I do (he does not shoot any models, he buys sets from other ppl like me), and he has been around longer. I have no idea how well his business is doing, but it canna be too bad, cos he keeps buying more from me.


I'd like you to start a thread on member loyalty. I doubt we'd get much feedback (the huge majority of members never read the boards, download the video, or ever offer feedback - they just DL the pics they want, then cancel), but it's worth a try. I'd love to hear your ideas, as well.


I'll check out iBill, been ages since I looked at their site. CCBill does not do any kinda loyalty thing. One of the main reasons for changing, however, is that both CCBill and iBill are expensive. While I am a staunch supporter of the "get what you pay for" way of thinking, if i can do it for a quarter of the price myself, that's pretty appealing. I don't think that the CCBill name is THAT good! Do you?

I acknowledge you point that US customers would feel more comfortable using a US bank. To be honest, I had not really considered that an issue until Syb brought it up on this thread (I'm a photographer! http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

The idea of prototyping the new payment system on the new site is a good idea. I was considering a different model, for the new site, however. Perhaps a credit based system, where customers buy credits, and zips cost three credits, for example. That way, customers DL only the stuff they want, and I get a clear indication of the models that people want to see more of (and can get them back to do more shoots, if they sell well). It also allows me to infinitely vary the price of sets. If a shoot cost me more to do (say, two especially pretty models), I can charge an extra credit.

>However, since Abby has "had it" with CC Bill, that might
>not meet her objective of moving fast.

well, I want to be sure it's the right decision. I do want to move fast, but not at the expense of regretting it!

>Also, I have reservations about the wisdom of establishing
>separate sites, but again, that should be the subject of a
>separate thread that I have been meaning to start - "Brand
>Extension as it Applies to Internet Porn Sites".

Sounds fascinating to me! Start it!

a

[kumaraguy]

Just curious about the stuff u sell...
Is it the same as we see here on AW ?

[Abby]

Hiya, K

Generally, I sell exclusive to other sites, which means that no one else (inlcuding me) is allowed to use the sets of pics. So, the models are the same, but the shoots a re different - different locations, clothes, etc.

a

[kumaraguy]

Hi
And would you say there was any difference in what we see here to what you sell..ie quality and/or content ?

[kumaraguy]

I mean, if I came across your pics somewhere else, would I recognise them as being yours? http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[kumaraguy]

Well d'uh
Same models http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif
Lol at meself

[Abby]

heh, yup, all the same models, and usually in the same locations. So, I shot Danny on that bed with the red velvet head (heh! Susie's fave, that was her bed while we were in Aldeaide!), and while I don't think i used that bed for any other shoots I did for aw.com, I prolly used it for a different model for a wholesale.

The models are the same, locations are the same, poses are similar, clothes are similar... just different pics, shot on a different day.

a

[kumaraguy]

That's y I only ever post 1 sentence at a time..
If I said more I would really make myself look like a prat! http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[sybianman]

I have to say Abby, I dislike credit based systems with a vengance. Both WebVirgins.com & Darchives.com use these, & in my own personal experience all that happens is that the subscriber becomes less inclined to download picture series. I found it kinda offputting to think that if I clicked on such-and-such link I'll be paying £'s for the privilege. Just doesn't 'feel' right, for some reason.

[artful]

I agree with Sybianman, I think a credit system would be unlikely to work well. The web is so set on the "all you can eat" model that it is very hard to change, especially in an area where there is so much competition.

A credit system would involve more sophisticated billing software that would take a larger investment. Does the third party management software you're considering offer such options?

I believe the only tried and true payment models beyond flat monthly fee are:

- Trial memberships at a slightly higher rate (no rebill.)
- Loyalty discounts after a number of months.
- VIP memberships (e.g. extra pics, larger pics, earlier access to new models)

Abby: is there any interaction between porn site operators, e.g. your wholesale customers? Can you get advice on what works and what doesn't, or is it all competition?

[Abby]

I have the software lined up already. Cost of the software is not an issue (in this case).

Syb, no offence, but to be helpful, you gotta offer more than "does not feel right". I mean, come ON... You're paying pounds for the privlidge of viewing my site currently... what's wrong with paying a similar amount (in fact, less), and having the advantage of only downloading the models you really want to see more of? As it is, you're forced to pay for stuff you don't want at all.

Neither of you have offerred any real reasons not to use the pay-per-download model. Webvirgins and darchives are very successful sites...?

Artful: Yah, there is some interaction between site operators. I have some very close friends in the biz, but few are willing to part with that kinda critical info that I really need. Whihc is fair enough. I'd be hesitant to give out that kidna info for nothing. I have tried on a few occasions, only to be shot down.

There seems to be two camps, tho. People who do it for the cold hard cash, and people who do it cos they enjoy being creative, and need to earn money to continue being that way.

I fall into the latter, I like to think, but I do hope to make money as well. There are a few people like me (more lately, compared to a year or more ago) about.

a

[arsby]

I have a big problem with pay-per-set.

I once calculated that Abby's site is several times cheaper than d. archives.
From him, you get approx 10 photos/credit, and each credit costs $1.20. So each photo costs $0.12.

From Abby, each month we get 800 photos for $15, so each photo costs less than $0.02. And Abby's photos are bigger. And better. And we get little movies for "free".

The other problem with pay-per-set, at least at d. archives, is that you only see a couple pics out of each 40-pic set, so you don't know just what you're getting. Will there be a 30-pic strip and only 10 spreads with no closeups? Or a short strip and many closeups? I don't want to pay to find out.

BTW I don't think I'd ever pay for an mpeg or avi. Too small.

[Abby]

Wow, big price difference, and I acknowledge your examples of not knowing what you are getting.

To give credit where credit is due, the MPGs / AVI's at darchives are much better quality than mine. They weigh in at 40Mb or so, go for 2 - 4 minutes, and can comfortably be watched at fullscreen on my 17" monitor.

a

[artful]

When I encountered the credits system the first time, I did not do the arithmetic to calculate cost per pic. Thanks Arsby for the illustration - it certainly makes aw.com look like a Consumer Reports "Best Buy".

My first thought about credits was "that sounds complicated" and I'm less prepared to try something I am not used to with an unknown porn site than with a brand I trust. If, for example, Amazon, offered MP3s on a credit system I might well try it because I trust them.

Online casinos that ask for a credit card deposit and then promise to credit winnings back to the card likely have the same problem.

I think it's best for porn sites to stick to the tried and true payment methods. But, it may be that the two sites (Webvirgins and darchives) Abby mentions have pioneered the concept and it is sufficiently well accepted now. That would just show that Sybianman and I are fuddy duddies http://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

It's a great pity that the Internet has not evolved a cash like (anonymous, transnational, secure, cheap for buyer and seller) micropayment system yet. As far as I know, PayPal has come the closest. It's not good for recurring payments on a "pull" model but is OK for one offs. That's why it works so well for eBay sellers.

[gus]

Actually there is such a system. I'm not sure how "open" it is -- but it works. You buy tokens 200/$20US and get access to picture sets on a variety of sites for anywhere from 1 to 20 tokens. Look at http://www.ppvn.com/ for their home page.

[artful]

I have not heard of ppvn. I'll try it out and see how well it works.

I am still looking for a cash equivalent that is broadly accepted - not a niche market. That's my candidate for the "next big thing" on the Internet - the company that cracks the problem will be the next Microsoft.

[timidly]

In defense of D. Archives' pay-as-you-go system, I've gotten pretty good at not downloading the series I don't like ;-)

In all seriousness, I think his previews and descriptions are very representative. I certainly can tell whether or not I find a model attractive. If I don't, I don't download. If I do, I do and am usually not disappointed. Even when he gets gynecological and scares me ;-)

I hate to speak heresy, but I don't download all that many of Abby's sets. (Gad - she'll probably check up on me in the logs!) I'm paying for a lot of free peaks at stuff I wouldn't otherwise pay for. But the sets that do punch my button are well worth the price of admission.

[tig]

Abby I been reading this and all I got to say is that CCBill is nice in that it offers several payment options. I like this site the way it is. I don't use Credit cards if you go with an outfit that does not use online checks then it will rule out my membership.

[Abby]

Hi Tig (welcome to the boards!)

Yep, new options would not allow cheque payments, unfortunately. But there are not many people paying by cheque, and CCBill is rejecting too many people who have credit cards - more than people pay by cheque.

I agree that I need to keep as many payment options as possible, tho.

Abby

[zinner]

I would have to say I have that this is the only site I have subscribed to multiple times. I usaully do the 3 month/$40 dollar stint and let it run out. Then after a couple weeks I miss it and sign up again. I think the regular updates is a BIG plus for me. When I get up Monday morning I am all excited it's a new week of Abbywinters!! Keep up the good work and you will always have a good customer like me.

ZinneR

[Abby]

Hi

For those who did not realise, we have largely ditched CCBill as a payment processor. We developed our own payment system over the last few months with our programming team, and now have a very robust and secure system in place. We have been running it for five weeks now, and had no significant glitches.

One of the main benefits is that we have control of how our members are dealt with. Anyone who has tried to deal with CCBill to resolve a specific issue will have found it's weeks of frustration. Now, we're able to deal with customers directly, and most issues are solved in a matter of hours, if not minutes.

Also, it means we're not longer paying CCBill 15% of every transaction, and more money in our pocket means we won't have to up our prices as we were in line to do soon.

There are many other benefits that woukld bore your guys, so trust me, the new billing system is awesome for us to administer the site with. And as I said, it's very secure, too.

abby

[cass]

I love the feeling of independance we've gained through this movement. It's cool. I feel powerful. The site feels more powerful.
I feel like...like...ROARING!

Yep, good. I'm done now.
Hmm hmm *cough*
Good

[arsby]

Zinner, just wanted to let you know I'm with you all the way. The best part of Monday morning is checking in at AW to see what *next* week's lineup will look like. Today I'm thrilled because there will be 5 picture sets going up next week! Wooee!
(A little aside: because I appreciate nearly every model at this site, and because the quality of the sets is *always* superb, I go for quantity.
Demure, de merrier.)

[jus1drun]

"Demure de merrier"? lmao.......

Well, Abby may remember that my payment options don't allow for paying online, so I'm very glad the resolve was to take control of payments first-hand. I like the more-personal touch in business because it generally keeps humanity in the relationship and ensures a more familiar atmosphere. Comfort levels are very important when you're shelling out money for dirty pictures, lol

Seriously, though, I'm glad I'm not left with no way to join this site.

[arsby]

Demure de Merrier is a distant and clueless cousin of Daphne du Maurier. She changed her name after the Iraq war so people wouldn't think she was Fr*nch.

P.S.
Wrong: I'm glad I'm not left with no way to join this site.
Right: I'm glad I'm left with a way to join this exceptional site.

[Jorinel]

This is a conversation I had with Abby about CCBill - reposted with her permission - as you can see. (Actually I thought AW would put this up, but since it hasn't happened, I will)
================================================== =========
Hiya

>I saw the discussion a week or three back about CCBill & I also saw that
>I am still paying by CCBill. Are you trying to migrate people to your
>new system? I did try to get to my account details from the AW site, but
>I was rejected - maybe my Credit card number changed. That doesn't
>matter a great deal at present.

If you are subscribed via CCBill, you'll need to get your details from
the CCBill site, not via mine. So, head on over here:

https://www.ccbill.com/system/member.cgi

>My three monthly sub will be due again near the beginning of August (I
>never thought I would let it run more than the first three months!), and
>I would like to make it pay better for you, if its the same for me...

Great, thanks. So, you need to cancel your account at CCBill now (so it
does not rebill), and rejoin the site in the usual way, and you'll be
joining through us. Of course, you'll be eligible to rejoin at a reduced
rate as you are a returning customer - head on over here:

[please email Abby for discount addy]

>Would it be better to raise this on the boards, so that others can see
>the discussion? If so feel free to put it up there (under the name of
>Jorinel!)

Sure, good idea, thanks!


-abby
================================================== =========
I have managed to unsubscribe from CCBill - but I couldn't resubscribe here using my current ID (it is already in use - surprise, surprise), so I will wait until the sub runs out & then do it.

I hope this is of use to anyione else in the same position.

** edited by Abby, June 25, 2003 **