Liandra pops in!

[liandra]

Greetings,

Ok so here I am, the prolific ISM poster, the large dark bumpy nippled feminist that I am. I've shown you my bits and my tits and now I am going to share with you a sliver or two from inside my cranium.

First of all "Hi Philos, thanks for the intro"

The shoot turned out well, and not least because I got to meet the lovely Verity, who loves to shake her butt on the dance floor as much as I do! It was a lot different from Ishotmyself.com, what with having two photographers I thought i'd put all the twisting and turning to get a good shot behind me, but then Abby made me put my legs behind my head ... twice, or was it three times, and WHAT WAS ALL THAT STUFF ABOUT THE PENGUINE!?!?!?!?! My house was very messy so the corner of the sofa that we worked in really was the only spot that wasn't covered in books, clothes and general crapola. Verity seemed to enjoy going through my underwear, though strangely enough I ended up doing the shoot in the ones I had on anyway. I checked the pictures out today, and I'm really glad I've grown that fringe out, it didn't suit me at all. Apart from the hideous fringe that at hacked at myself, I think the girls did a really good job.

I've got my last exam for the semester tomorrow so I'd better get back to it.

Li x

[calliope]

Greetings Liandra

I'd be interested to hear what you mean by feminist and feminism,(as succinctly as possible of course).:)

[Philos]

Oh, no!

[Gerza71]

Great to hear from you Liandra. Your pics from Abby.com turn out great. Good luck on your exams for tomorrow.



From
GCG71

[daimm9]

Welcome to "The Models Speak," where you get compliments and friendly insults in equal measure.

You ladies are all very brave in the way you do good to us lonely fellows. I didn't realise that you had to put your legs behind your ears on several occasions. I had assumed that you had done it once and that Abby had done some very quick shots.

I hope that you enjoyed suffering for your art. I certainly enjoyed looking at the results. Gymnastics, legs tastfully apart, and a wonderful full set of pubic hair all in one set. Great.

By coming onto this part of AW you become part of the AW family. Welcome.

DaiMM

[arsby]

A girl who is beautiful, can put her legs behind her head, *and* is so obviously intelligent... I am so in love!

Can you tell us what you're studying at the university and which year you're in? From your age it would seem you're in graduate school (swoon!) but maybe you took some time off.

[artlover]

WHAT WAS ALL THAT STUFF ABOUT THE PENGUINE!?!?!?!?!
Inquiring subscribers want to know!!

Ok so here I am, the prolific ISM poster, the large dark bumpy nippled feminist that I am. I've shown you my bits and my tits and now I am going to share with you a sliver or two from inside my cranium.
Those are two very interesting sentences. :D. Keep the cranial slivers coming.

Good luck with the exams, too.


Artlover, a great fan of clever women.

[liandra]

Calliope - When it comes to being a feminist and feminism the talent of being succinct is not one I possess. However as an opener to a much longer debate feminism to me means the acceptance of the differences between the sexes, the acceptance of the similarities between the sexes that are hidden by artificial gender construction, the autonomy of females, working towards the equal representation of females in ruling power structures, admonishing double standards with regard to the sexual practices and behaviour of either sex, the avoidance of victim feminism, the worship of those that went before that got us to this point, the continued effort towards an understanding of and a balanced contribution of male and female to all aspects of life,

Arsby - I am doing a BA and I am in my second year. Sorry to dissapoint arsby but I certainly did have time out, I'm a mum! Give me eigthteen months and I'll be studying as a graduate. Hold that swoon till then eh...

Philos - There's nothing to fear, Liandra is here! Unless of course that is what you fear and then of course I expect you to be trembling in your boots! In case there is any doubt, I loved the intro.

Daimm9 - I didn't suffer, getting my feet behind my head isn't much trouble, but for some reason Abby wanted me to do it, jeans on and jeans off, can't think why...

gerza71 - Thank you, I'm glad you liked them. Kepp your fingers crossed for my exams, I'm counting on it.

[artlover]

feminism to me means the acceptance of the differences between the sexes, the acceptance of the similarities between the sexes that are hidden by artificial gender construction, the autonomy of females, working towards the equal representation of females in ruling power structures, admonishing double standards with regard to the sexual practices and behaviour of either sex, the avoidance of victim feminism, the worship of those that went before that got us to this point, the continued effort towards an understanding of and a balanced contribution of male and female to all aspects of life Wow. Sounds like you're thinking like a graduate student already! Go for it!

[Philos]

Philos - There's nothing to fear, Liandra is here! Unless of course that is what you fear and then of course I expect you to be trembling in your boots!
It's not your take on feminism that I am apprehensive about, because it is brilliantly sane and balanced (IMO). It's just that the subject seems to start endless pointless discussions and misunderstandings whenever it is raised.

[Duaane]

Wow. I had to spend an hour with my dictionary, to get a hint of what Liandra was trying to say.

Yes men and women are basically made of the same "DNA/RNA", it is the diffrences that make life more appealing. Also the thought process (though both equal) are diffrent in direction.

I have to say that the "the acceptance of the differences between the sexes, the acceptance of the similarities between the sexes that are hidden by artificial gender construction", is subject to the intellegence of the "person" who is viewing the matter in the first person aspect.

Personally I do not see anything "hidden" and by no mean believe gender constuction to be "artificial" (unless human surgery altered). It is an simple "X" and or "Y" basic Natural construction (for bevity I will not go into XXY, or XYY {and more complex} exception(s))

I like the diffrences.

[artlover]

It's just that the subject seems to start endless pointless discussions and misunderstandings whenever it is raised.
I respectfully disagree. Yes, feminism raises difficult questions and there are many competing definitions of feminism, but's that's no reason not to risk misunderstanding. Sometimes the only point of a discussion is to start talking. And then have another discussion later. If the Founders hadn't endured confusion and misunderstanding prior to 1776, I'd be singing "God Save the Queen". :D

[daimm9]

If the Founders hadn't endured confusion and misunderstanding prior to 1776, I'd be singing "God Save the Queen". :D

I am.

No complaints though. Each to his or her own!

I should have said in my first missive

"Liandra,
Never mind good luck in your exams.
Just pass them with good grades, whatever the luck.
You can do it, girl.

Joking apart, all the very best of luck.

DaiMM

[liandra]

Personally I do not see anything "hidden" and by no mean believe gender constuction to be "artificial" (unless human surgery altered). It is an simple "X" and or "Y" basic Natural construction (for bevity I will not go into XXY, or XYY {and more complex} exception(s))

I like the diffrences.It is a classic misunderstanding to presume that gender is synonymous with sex. I am not talking about DNA and genitalia; what I am refering to, when I discuss the construction of gender (and its relevant artifices), is the alterations each sex make to our appearance and behaviour to construct, portray and perpetuate the concept, and binary dichotomy, of masculine or feminine that our particular culture enforces.

I like differences too.

[liandra]

Philos - I actually know exactly where you're coming from, the word "feminism" has some speciously negative connotations. I am not deterred, though I too have endured "endless pointless discussions and misunderstandings", but I have also experienced similar frustrations on other topics I am passionate about, such as; Historical theoretics, Politics, Sexuality and Love. I am passionate about it (as with the other topics) and I will not shy away from claiming it for one of my many labels/ categorisation just because it will often cause people to harbour prejudices against, or make presumptions about, me. I've learnt more through studying it about myself, my gender, my sex, men, sex, love, society and myriad more vital componants of human life, than I would ever have imagined to be possible. Exploring feminism has been, and will continue to be, the most challenging journey, that evokes the regular re-analysis of everything I've ever presumed to know about myself and who I am.

Artlover & Daimm99 - Thank you, for your responses, and for wishing me luck on the exams. If you like I'll let you know how I went when I know.

Li

[calliope]

When it comes to being a feminist and feminism the talent of being succinct is not one I possess.

You seem admirably succinct to me.:)

the worship of those that went before that got us to this point,

"worship" worries me a little,but Germaine Greer would no doubt qualify as one who has gone before.Did you happen to see the tv programme she did a couple of weeks back.?She was expressing the view,as she has before,that feminism seems to have become a bit parochial almost,and is concerning itself too much with equality,rather than a more fundamental liberation.Would you be agreeing with her.?

I'd also be very interested to hear your view on the erotic/pornographic binary dichotomy,and what criteria you use to distinguish them.

Hope the exams went well.

[arsby]

One thing that keeps stopping me in my tracks is both Calliope and Liandra speaking of a "binary dichotomy". Is there any other type of dichotomy?

I wonder what you mean, Liandra, when you speak of a "more fundamental liberation" than equality. Does it have something to do with the gender-based alterations to our appearance that you spoke of before?

More to the point of this website, I'd also like to hear your take on the difference between pornographic and erotic. Is this website pornographic? When and why?

Did I mention before that I find intelligence in a woman to be a great turn-on?
And when they are so brilliant that I have to read what they write two or three times to understand, that it is a massive turn-on?
And you're cute, too! I am SO in love.

[calliope]

.......speaking of a "binary dichotomy". Is there any other type of dichotomy?

I would have said that dichotomy simply refers to branching or diverging,with the branches not necessarily having any subsequent effect or influence on each other.
For instance,the branches of a tree,where one subsequently dies back.

Binary dichotomy,I would understand as branching,but where the subsequent branches continue to influence each other,or may be necessary for their continued existence.

I would imagine that liandra may be using the term rather more specifically to include the meaning of binary opposites,but I would see the general idea as being the same.

[Philos]

A note on terminology

All the senses of 'dichotomy' contain the idea of 'two', so 'binary' is not necessary. One sense refers specifically to a 'sharp or paradoxical contrast', as suggested by Calliope.(SOED)

There does not seem to be a dichotomy between the ideas of 'erotic' and 'pornographic'
SOED again:

Erotic
Of or pertaining to sexual love; amatory, esp. tending to arouse sexual desire or excitement. m19

Pornography
The explicit description or exhibition of sexual subjects or activity in literature, painting, films, etc., in a manner intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic feelings; literature etc. containing this.m19.

The contrast seems to be between 'erotic' (or Pornographic) on the one hand and 'aesthetic' on the other.

Newspapers, who love this subject, may be responsible for distorting the meanings of these terms in popular thought. Or maybe the dictionary is out of date - quite possible in these fast-changing times.

Clearly, Abby's photography combines the erotic and the aesthetic, which is why we are all here and not somewhere else.

[Vid Dude]

Indeed, that's not a dichotomy - it's a juxtaposition.

[artlover]

This is such a cool thread. A brainy, articulate, politically aware, and lovely woman and other smart people who know the difference between a dichotomy and a juxtaposition. All that is necessary for perfection is for Liandra to be a cat person. :D

My cat made me write that.:D

[calliope]

Just to complicate,or clarify.:)

Examples of what I would see as binary dichotomy would be wave /particle duality,matter/energy,space/time,masculine/feminine.In other words each pair is a dual expression of a deeper underlying reality.But that's not the same as binary opposites.

According to the definitions you provide,the pornographic has an intent to stimulate,by explicit means,that which has only a tendency to arouse sexual excitement.:D

[BigSpud]

I have noticed that there are 10 kinds of people in the world.

Those who like binary and those who don't.

:)

[liandra]

Ok, before this goes much further I'd better clear up why I used the apparent tautology in the term Binary Dichotomy.The idea behind this term, for me, is that in western society there has been a system of dividing things into a duality of opposites.
Man/ Woman
Good/ Evil
Light/ Dark
Public/ Private
Autonomy/ interconnection, nurture
Independence/ Dependence
Subject/ Object
Culture/ Nature
Human/ Animal
Day/ Night
Activity/ Passivity
Logos/ Pathos
So this is a binary system, of sorts, and has hierarchical connotations.

The dichotomy I refer to is more the false or exacerbated divergence of the sexes by the constructed gender that we create through altering our physical appearance to further extend the physical differences between the sexes. Gender signs are so ubiquitous from such a young age that we do not notice them unless they are missing or ambiguous. The idea that there are only two genders is actually debatable as well, so this term refers to all these things, but I’m not going to get any more deeply into this at the moment.

[arsby]

We had a little girl (and her family) over for dinner. She was about 8. I knew it was a girl because my wife told me beforehand, but my sons did not because she had short hair and was wearing jeans and a tee-shirt. She also had an ambiguous name. My 11-yr-old played some playstation and computer games with her, and came away from the evening thinking she was a boy who was uncommonly ignorant about video games. I, on the the other hand, was viewing her as a cute girl. My wife was wondering why her parents would cut her hair so short.

I suppose that is what you mean when you are talking about ambiguous gender signs. However I don't understand what that has to do with feminism. Is gender ambiguity something we should aspire to? Or are you simply saying that our culture forces preconceptions on gender; like my son expected the "boy" to be good at video games?

[liandra]

As for the debate on the erotic and pornographic, I haven't much concerned myself with it, but I agree with Philos that it isn't a dichotomy. I know I don't much like mainstream pornography, with the fake boobs, big hair, too much make-up and eight inch heals. The most I have got into the discourses on pornography it is to read Tales of the Clit From assorted authors telling stories of their experience with/ within the porn industry. It has a range of women from academics, professional porn stars, feminsts, and more. It's sponsored by the Anti-censorship Movement, and its a great read.

I think www.abbywinters.com (http://www.abbywinters.com), www.IShotMyself.com (http://www.IShotMyself.com), and www.Beautifulagony.com (http://www.Beautifulagony.com) are a breath of fresh air but I still classify them as pornography. However, I don't think pornography as a classification excludes the possibility of it also being art or aesthetically appealing.

Have I made any sense? Oh and if anyone can reccommend some good (hardcore) porn movies that combine the erotic and the aesthetic I would be much obliged.

Li xx

[liandra]

We had a little girl (and her family) over for dinner. She was about 8. I knew it was a girl because my wife told me beforehand, but my sons did not because she had short hair and was wearing jeans and a tee-shirt. She also had an ambiguous name. My 11-yr-old played some playstation and computer games with her, and came away from the evening thinking she was a boy who was uncommonly ignorant about video games. I, on the the other hand, was viewing her as a cute girl. My wife was wondering why her parents would cut her hair so short.

I suppose that is what you mean when you are talking about ambiguous gender signs. However I don't understand what that has to do with feminism. Is gender ambiguity something we should aspire to? Or are you simply saying that our culture forces preconceptions on gender; like my son expected the "boy" to be good at video games?
Ok, I'm on holidays so I'm going to be lazy and not get into a lengthy discussion on gender constructions and what that means to the feminist movement. I'll just reccommend some readings and if you're really interested you'll take the time to find them and read them.

1) Elizabeth Grosz - Sexual difference and the problems of essentialism: Space, time and Perversion: The Politics of Bodies (pp46-57)
2) Judith Lorber - Paradoxes of Gender

Of course should you not be able to find these specifically, there is a vast body of work on this topic, just pop into your library.

But no, I am not claiming that gender ambiguity is something that we should aspire to. Just that it is only people of an iconoclastic nature, when it comes to gender signs and signals, that make us aware that we are performing our gender to a heightened extent, and though we may think of our gender in terms of natural, essential and biological; that isn't actually the case. In a society that has, for millenia, been based on a patriarchal hierarchical gender divide, and the subsequent division of labour and status attached to that, gender signs and signals have been an essential part of ensuring that individuals clearly indicate our status/ gender to the rest of society so that existing power structures can continue to function. Though women's movements have effected great changes in attitudes to women over the last century, we are still totally imbibed with ideas of naturalism, essentialism and biologism associated with gender; but a study of gender across cultural, historical and class divides shows it to be a dynamic and constructed thing. Also the presence of minority communities that do not perform the hegemonic heterosexual gender roles of western society disrupt enforced normative sex/ gender systems.

[baboo]

Hmm, not sure I want to opine on this subject.

I'll just say that this pic is my favorite from the set. It looks like you're doing your impression of a happy yoni. So we end up with a yoni within a yoni, almost recursive.

http://media.abbywinters.com/member/Liandra/liandra/lianda089.jpg

[BigSpud]

...I suppose that is what you mean when you are talking about ambiguous gender signs. However I don't understand what that has to do with feminism. Is gender ambiguity something we should aspire to? Or are you simply saying that our culture forces preconceptions on gender; like my son expected the "boy" to be good at video games?
I think we have been greatly amiss in our quest for gender sameness. I just recently realized how much I had been brought up in that attitude. It is a long story, but basically I used to think that the main difference was that girl's boobs got bigger and "worked" if they got pregnant and girls had "innies" where boys had "outies".

I am reading this book (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22why+gender+matters%22&btnG=Google+Search) and it has been very revealing to me. It matters a lot more than I thought. :)

[liandra]

I think we have been greatly amiss in our quest for gender sameness. I just recently realized how much I had been brought up in that attitude. It is a long story, but basically I used to think that the main difference was that girl's boobs got bigger and "worked" if they got pregnant and girls had "innies" where boys had "outies".

I am reading this book (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22why+gender+matters%22&btnG=Google+Search) and it has been very revealing to me. It matters a lot more than I thought. :)Ok so being told that the only difference between men and women is their genitalia is way off the mark; but surely it must have been obvious to you on a far more basic level that men and women dress, behave and are treated in distinctly different ways? We are not only influenced by home and family, but the schools, institutions and media.

Gender similarities and differences is a very complex issue, but I am NOT, and NEVER have, claimed that men and women are basically the same. Physically men and women are not as dissimilar as we might believe, if left to let everything grow entirely naturally , and were subject to the same conditions and equall amounts of excercise; but we make more of the small differences, and idolize and strive for masculine and feminine shapes that encourage slender hairless delicacy in women and a more muscular appearance (with hair) in men, which could conceivably be a way to perpetuate the concept of the strong active man and the weak passive (childlike/ hairless) woman. Though women are generally smaller than men that is not true for a vast number of men and women. Some women can grow beards, some men can not grow beards. A woman who has facial hair will subject herself to painfull permanent depilatory techniques so that she conforms to the norm of her gender, and when that is merely in addition to the removal of leg, armpit, pubic, even moustache, chin and any other unruly body or facial hair.

Anyway, I didn't really mean to get into this on this site. I'm interested in why we "do gender" and the way our society imposes informal sanctions on those who don't perform gender according to the rules, but I don't want to comit myself publicly to a position that I am, at this time, still exploring myself.

[BigSpud]

...Anyway, I didn't really mean to get into this on this site. I'm interested in why we "do gender" and the way our society imposes informal sanctions on those who don't perform gender according to the rules, but I don't want to comit myself publicly to a position that I am, at this time, still exploring myself.Hi Liandra,

I was replying to Arsby's question "Is gender ambiguity something we should aspire to?". I don't think so.

When you say "do gender", do you mean "do gender stereotypes"? If so then I definitely think that is something that deserves to be banished.

I didn't learn about some of the more subtle differences, like difference in hearing, in brain development sequence and speed, in types of play, in ways of processing information and more until very recently. It made quite an impact on me. It is also true that none of it is universally 99+% true.

I don't think it is about "weaker" and "stronger", but about different. Let's use the strengths of each person and not get into an argument of what is "better".

Have you read "The Chalice and the Blade"? I personally think the world would be improved with more female leadership. I don't think the guys have done all that great a job of it. (BigSpud ducks) :)

[calliope]

I'd better clear up why I used the apparent tautology in the term Binary Dichotomy.

I didn't see any tautology,only a phrase that attempts to convey a general sense of a divergence into two parts,but where the parts remain interconnected in some way,as in binary stars revolving around each other,or a common centre.



The idea behind this term, for me, is that in western society there has been a system of dividing things into a duality of opposites.

I thought that's what you were meaning,and much of that stems from the adversarial style of thinking that still infests law and politics,which virtually have to create opposites in order to function.Also,even in secular societies,the unholy alliance of Church and State still pervades many aspects,even if only in the form of an echo.It's also axiomatic that much of what is portrayed as opposite is little more than useful analogy that works within some limits,but rapidly breaks down in others,such as light/dark.


As for the debate on the erotic and pornographic, I haven't much concerned myself with it,but I agree with Philos that it isn't a dichotomy.

Obviously if someone sees no real distinction between the erotic and the pornographic,then they would see no dichotomy,so erotica and pornography could be viewed as simply juxtaposed on the same spectrum,and nothing more.

Whilst I would view them as being on the same spectrum,to me,there is a point of divergence,in that one is trying to do something very specific.Consequently,I do see a dichotomy.As the point of divergence is the intent of the maker,it's no wonder that the law has always got itself into a muddle.

A useful analogy would be the temperature spectrum of liquid water/steam.At normal atmospheric pressure,liquid water can be warmed to any temperature up to 100C,and I would liken that to the erotic.At 100C there is a change of state,or divergence,when the water becomes steam.I would liken the steam to pornography.The two different states are juxtaposed,but there is a clear point of divergence,or dichotomy.

[artlover]

Anyway, I didn't really mean to get into this on this site.
No need to explain. I'm forever saying I won't get into a discussion then changing my mind and jumping in full throttle! (Oooh, badly mixed metaphors :D ). I'm having a fine time; you're a most interesting writer.

What society needs is less either/or and more both/and.

Art/lover (juxtaposing, not dichotomizing :D)

[BigSpud]

... What society needs is less either/or and more both/and.

Prexactly!

[calliope]

Most porn/erotica (a distinction I'll skip over for sake of brevity) ..............

Should you decide to cast brevity to the wind,I can assure you of my fullest attention.:D

[Duaane]

People or rather the public likes things in pure black & white (as we no there are no such colors/colours).

I have tried to keep "in touch" with my femine side, while staying hetero-sexual. It costs, as said people want male or female, not a nurturing, feeling "man".

To answer your question more directly; The "Church" and past needed social structure is going to take time to metimophsis, or evolve. All "I" can do is try to act and push naturally to a more comprehensive multi-fasited(sp) people. Hell many dresses, and blouses(sp) still button for a woman to be dressed (by a hand maid, or her husband). So we are about 200 years + behind (our technical/open life).


Anyway, I didn't really mean to get into this on this site. I'm interested in why we "do gender" and the way our society imposes informal sanctions on those who don't perform gender according to the rules, but I don't want to comit myself publicly to a position that I am, at this time, still exploring myself.
Lastly you said this site is "porn", I have my belief(s): Porn, is showing or doing killings/torture/mutilation, and sexually, beyond "normal" (and my normal leaves little to be abnormal w/o above).

This is a sexual site, porn please see rape, and humiliation sites. This is home sex, normal and plain.

IMHO

[daimm9]

Liandre,

It's not enough to say Welcome Back,
So "Double welcome back" to you.

I am impressed with the way you can get enthusiastic discussions going.
Agree or disagree with you, you have stimulated some wonderful writings, even if some are arguing on what they expected you to write, rather than what you actually said.
Its the
"Paris in the
The Spring," effect.

All the best in your explorations. May you discover yourself in the way best suited to you.

DaiMM

[artlover]

Then there's the

Melbourne in the
the Winters

effect.

Ha! Could not resist.:D Never can, when smart gorgeous women are on the thread. Sometimes the Universe is very kind to us guys, eh?

[liandra]

Baboo - Are you calling me a cunt?

Actually I've never heard anyone call it a yoni before. Where'd you get that jolly little term from?

[liandra]

I am actually pleasantly surprised, and pretty impressed, with the AW 'family' that I've encountered through this thread. I was expecting, not without a hint of trepidation, a general aversion to the thread once the topic of feminism came up. Nice one lads, you've made me feel really welcome.

[artlover]

Our pleasure. For some reason, the boards attract bright, well-mannered guys (with dirty minds :D ). Although I doubt any of us have more sexual thoughts than other people--we censor ourselves less. Of course, as has been noticed elsewhere, many of the active communicators are middle-aged and have had some of their rough edges worn off :D.

So many Abby models are limber--about every third one, it seems, can place her feet behind her head. I must admit I get jealous. :D

Like duanne, I don't consider this site porn, even though the law does. Most porn I have seen objectifies the participants (men and women), is poorly done, and sometimes features humiliating things like facials or gender epithets. None of that applies here.

A lot of feminists are highly critical of porn for the unequal power relations it enacts. So am I. This is what I like about AW--models are not coerced into doing things they don't want to do. The videos are quietly revolutionary. If a model wants to talk about her reading tastes, pets, clothes, or shoes, she can, as long as she disrobes at some point. I have come to enjoy these, although some subscribers object.

AW has taught me that people are more complex than I imagine. It is easy to buy into the myth that men who like porn are degraded and evil and antisocial and a threat to society. A tiny minority of men are like that, but I suspect they would be that way without porn. This has to do with our socialization (one of my favorite words, Liandra) that sexual thoughts and desires and behaviors are inherently immoral. They aren't... although, like all other desires, obsessive-compulsive behavior in those areas is not life-affirming.

Long story short. You're a welcome presence here, Liandra. I hope you keep posting your thoughts/speculations about feminism and society.

And no, I don't think Baboo was calling you a cunt. But I will let him explain yonis.. :D

Ahtluhvah

[arsby]

Yoni is a word from the Kama Sutra, meaning female genitalia. As opposed to the lingham, the male genitalia.

Actually, baboo's post, and the attendant picture, reminded me why I really love this site, which is not, I'm sad to say, for the stimulating discourse.

That picture reminded me that you is "bendy". So you're really pretty, wise, intelligent, and bendy. Can it get any better than this?

[liandra]

Like duanne, I don't consider this site porn, even though the law does. Most porn I have seen objectifies the participants (men and women), is poorly done, and sometimes features humiliating things like facials or gender epithets. None of that applies here.
I can understand why yourself and Duanne want to draw a stark differentiation between the porn that exploits and degrades women against their will, or that even with the willing female participants, propagates stereotypes of men and women that have a pernicious effect for society at large; and the porn that exhibits and exhaults the female in a natural, relaxed and empowering way. However, I think I still see it as pornography in AW, ISM, BA case. Forgive me if I am being obtuse but Pornography is simply pictures, writings or films that have the intent to arouse sexually. I know that Pornography as a word has a lot of connotations attached that many self respecting people would like to distance themselves from, so I do see where you're coming from.


A lot of feminists are highly critical of porn for the unequal power relations it enacts. So am I.
A lot of feminist are pro-porn also, and feel that if women felt freer to explore such things then perhaps unequal power relations that mainstream porn currently enacts would be diminshed. Also porn is alot about fantasy, and what you fantasise about can often be far more depraved than what you believe to be an acceptable way for you to behave. Has anyone checked out Nancy Friday's work on Fantasy. The books are called Men in Love and Women in Love and they are both disturbing, arousing and certainly enlightening.


It is easy to buy into the myth that men who like porn are degraded and evil and antisocial and a threat to society. This has to do with our socialization that sexual thoughts and desires and behaviors are inherently immoral. A tiny minority of men are like that, but I suspect they would be that way without porn.
I think its a real shame that people are buying into the myth and making those assumptions about voyeurs of porn, and your spot on about that socialisation. I think you're right about the tiny minority of men like that being that way with or without porn.

Well I'm going to go snuggle down with a good book.

Li xx

[liandra]

Yoni is a word from the Kama Sutra, meaning female genitalia. As opposed to the lingham, the male genitalia.

Actually, baboo's post, and the attendant picture, reminded me why I really love this site, which is not, I'm sad to say, for the stimulating discourse.

That picture reminded me that you is "bendy". So you're really pretty, wise, intelligent, and bendy. Can it get any better than this?
Oh Arsby! You'll give me a big head! But in answer to your question I wouldn't mind looking as good in a bikini as Rosanna does, and having a photographic memory, knowing every word in the english language and its origin, knowing a few other languages, having the power to change the world to the way I think it should be...hmmm... am I being greedy?

[artlover]

Well I'm going to go snuggle down with a good book.
Whatcha reading, Li?

One of life's great pleasures, to be sure. Not quite as much fun as snuggling with a good person, but perhaps there are fewer complications. :D (Of course, some of the complications are great fun, too... :D ). Snuggling down with an author is another matter entirely--writers are not the world's best adjusted people... :D

Another wonderful thing: reading aloud/be read aloud to by a friend or lover. My most recent* GF and I did that, and they are great memories.

* I am always careful to say "most recent" and not "last" in this context. "Last" has a disturbing air of finality.

[baboo]

Baboo - Are you calling me a cunt?

Actually I've never heard anyone call it a yoni before. Where'd you get that jolly little term from?

LOL! No, of course I wasn't calling you a cunt. I see someone else has already explained yonis better than I ever could have though, so I'll just defer to them.

Funny though, speaking of yonis and femminism, the pose kind of reminds me of something I read on the web about a woman making a giant-sized yoni out of cloth for use in a theatre performance of the Vagina Monologues. You could just skip the needle and thread altogether and use that pose. ;)

[baboo]

Oh, I pretty much agree with your definition of porn, Liandra. AW is porn, plain and simple, and I don't understand why some people feel the need to pretend it is above that.

As for porn being one-sided and all, I think it has do with simple differences between the way men and women are wired for sex. Men are, generally speaking, and women usually more verbal. IME, "chick porn" is generally a book.

[Duaane]

Guess my 3 dictionaries (2 Russian-English) 1 websters Eng., are diffrent then your dictionary. (Wonderment for other languages? why does English argue with themselves?).

I all 3 of mine Porn = Bad, or negitive, including Websters define Porn or Pornographic, as abnormal, sex, and or violence that would be distubing to the general public. I see nothing on AW, that would be "offensive to the majority of adult viewers". So I need your dictionary as it may give me insight to what you "Liandra", considers pornographic, or offensive.

I can understand why yourself and Duanne want to draw a stark differentiation between the porn that exploits and degrades women against their will, or that even with the willing female participants, propagates stereotypes of men and women that have a pernicious effect for society at large; and the porn that exhibits and exhaults the female in a natural, relaxed and empowering way. However, I think I still see it as pornography in AW, ISM, BA case. Forgive me if I am being obtuse but Pornography is simply pictures, writings or films that have the intent to arouse sexually.

Li xx
Well my websearch shows many definitions, most all have "The definition of what material is pornographic varies from community to community." So I guess art/porn is arbatray(sp) at best.

[baboo]

I think art is something that you wouldn't mind showing to your children. AW obviously goes a bit past that point.

[Philos]

Websters define Porn or Pornographic, as abnormal, sex, and or violence that would be distubing to the general public.
Why do dictionaries disagree? Perhaps because Webster is American and the OED is English. "Two nations divided by a common language" (who said that?) :)

[BigSpud]

... "Two nations divided by a common language" (who said that?) :)Check here (http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Phrases_and_Sayings/question6525.html).

[Duaane]

Does not help me communicate(sp) me thoughts to Liandra. Can't you two (or 2-7) come up with a "agreeable" language. It is hard enough with france-greek influences for us "non-english" primary, to comprehend, then all the "twists" of it... LMAO

Bet there is few English/Amarican/Aussie professors that "understand" what the other is talking about, so I guess I will be for-ever lost :mad:


Why do dictionaries disagree? Perhaps because Webster is American and the OED is English. "Two nations divided by a common language" (who said that?) :)

[calliope]

However, I don't think pornography as a classification excludes the possibility of it also being art or aesthetically appealing.

I think you would need to give some idea of what you mean by art.Also,I find the only pornography that fulfils the intent of the maker,is that which is aesthetically appealing.

I think I still see it as pornography in AW, ISM, BA case. Forgive me if I am being obtuse but Pornography is simply pictures, writings or films that have the intent to arouse sexually

You're not being at all obtuse.I fully agree with the second sentence,(although I would attach some notion of degree of arousal),and which is why it needs to be distinguished in some way from that which does not intend to arouse,but which may do so unintentionally.The latter is where I would locate the erotic.

Logically it's only the photographer,videographer,or editor,who can say what the intent is,but the viewer can say subjectively if that intent is fulfilled,and how aesthetically satisfying is the manner of its fulfilment.

As far as AW is concerned,I would have difficulty believing that everything that is put up on the site is put there with the intent to cause sexual arousal.As far as I can see,some shoots simply aim to portray female beauty in its endless diversity,and even though some viewers may be sexually aroused to varying degrees,that would not mean it's pornographic.

Consequently,if you're saying that AW is pornography per se,then,respectfully,I would have to disagree with you.I see it as a mixture of the erotic and the pornographic.

[artlover]

I think art is something that you wouldn't mind showing to your children Well, most parents have found they if their children see me, no major harm arises. :D

Seriously, I disagree. Some art is of a disturbing and graphic nature that is not suitable for children, yet is fully art. There are plenty of films (I am using art in a broad sense) that have something useful to say about humanity that children should not see. The Passion of the Christ, for instance, qualifies as art by most standards, but I sure would not let my (hypothetical) child see it. There are some adults who had trouble taking it.

I'm an artist, so I have strong feelings about this. If our the criterion of suitability-for-children were applied--and I am not suggesting that anyone here believes it should--it would result in a society of "safe" art. Not all art has to shock, but sometimes shock is necessary. I once saw a photo of a woman, nude from the waist up, who had had a radical mastectomy. I was shocked--but I fully support the NY Time's decision to run the photo, because it may have shocked some women into self-examination.

Everything on Abby Winters is art, in that it is a creative expression using tools of creativity. And damn good art, too. How could it be otherwise--the human body is among the finest art in Creation.

Okay, now that feminism(s), the meaning(s) of porno and art are on the boards, who's willing to take a shot at the meaning of life? :D Philos? :D:D

[OlderGuy]

Yoni is a word from the Kama Sutra, meaning female genitalia. Was there a song that went
My yoni lies over the ocean,
My yoni lies over the sea.
Bring back, O bring back,
Bring back my yoni to me.
?
og:)

[artlover]

LOLEFTNTH!!!

(Laughing Out Loud Enough For The Neighbors To Hear) :) :)

[arsby]

I remember a song that went
My bonnie lies over the ocean,
My bonnie lies over the sea.
My Daddy lay over my Mommy,
And that's how they got little me.

5th grade humor.

Sorry to soil your thread, Liandra. Oldguy's fault. :)

[calliope]

I'm an artist, so I have strong feelings about this.

.......the human body is among the finest art in Creation.

Have to respectfully disagree.:)

I would have thought the human body is no more art than Tracy Emin's bed,and for exactly the same reason.Its depiction can be.

I would love to hear how you define art,(and pornography and erotica).:)

[Duaane]

Art= painting/photos, etc, that appleal to ones sence of astidics(SP)

Erotitism= depictations, or discriptions of of sexual passion, and love making (lust/sexual), human.

Porn= Erotitism(sp) beyound normal social values {sex too kinky for normal people (who ever they are?)} or violence so graphic in nature to disturb, and dehuminize(sp) the "normal person")

I would love to hear how you define art,(and pornography and erotica).:)
Now again thats my take on it from what I have learned, and not subject to all international interpretations, or community standareds(sp).

[Philos]

... who's willing to take a shot at the meaning of life? :D Philos? :D:D
Waaaaaay off topic, sorry! (And you wouldn't like my answer :) )

[Philos]

Art= painting/photos, etc, that appeal to one's sense of aesthetics.

Eroticism= depictions, or descriptions of of sexual passion, and love making (lust/sexual), human.

Porn= eroticism beyond normal social values (sex too kinky for normal people, whoever they are) or violence so graphic in nature as to disturb and dehumanize the "normal person"
Do art and eroticism overlap? (i.e.is all, some, or no eroticism a form of art?) Apart from that little problem, I think those are useful categories. It would be good if everybody used the same words to label them, but apparently they don't :( . (I hope you don't mind my changing your spellings)

[baboo]

Well, most parents have found they if their children see me, no major harm arises. :D

Seriously, I disagree. Some art is of a disturbing and graphic nature that is not suitable for children, yet is fully art. There are plenty of films (I am using art in a broad sense) that have something useful to say about humanity that children should not see. The Passion of the Christ, for instance, qualifies as art by most standards, but I sure would not let my (hypothetical) child see it. There are some adults who had trouble taking it.

I'm an artist, so I have strong feelings about this. If our the criterion of suitability-for-children were applied--and I am not suggesting that anyone here believes it should--it would result in a society of "safe" art. Not all art has to shock, but sometimes shock is necessary. I once saw a photo of a woman, nude from the waist up, who had had a radical mastectomy. I was shocked--but I fully support the NY Time's decision to run the photo, because it may have shocked some women into self-examination.

Everything on Abby Winters is art, in that it is a creative expression using tools of creativity. And damn good art, too. How could it be otherwise--the human body is among the finest art in Creation.

Okay, now that feminism(s), the meaning(s) of porno and art are on the boards, who's willing to take a shot at the meaning of life? :D Philos? :D:D

Well, at the risk of offending you, I prefer a bit more narrow definition of "art". Not every human expression qualifies as art, IMO. If it did, then we'd all more or less be artists. Speech is important, and should be free, but it still does not rise to the level of art no matter how much attention-getting fringe you staple to the sides of it. Art, IMO, is mostly about aesthetics. If you can squeeze a message in there too, fine, but it must really stand on its own and be recognized as art by an observer that has no knowledge or interest in your political/social/religious/etc. views.

I think some of the AW photos would stand as art on their own, but I just don't see art as the primary intent here. The primary intent is to display the naked female body to those of us who have a sexual interest. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Perhaps you do have a point that there is some art that may not be age-appropriate for youngsters, but for the most part, simple nudism like Michelango's David are not going to be traumatic to their psyches.

[OlderGuy]

simple nudism like Michelango's David are not going to be traumatic to their psyches. There seems to be a scale effect. A small reproduction of David is cute, a life-size replica is disturbing to most people but accepted as art. If you display a larger-than-life replica of the same statue, people call the police.
og

[artlover]

I would love to hear how you define art,(and pornography and erotica).:)
I have never arrived at a satisfactory definition of porn, because it always seem to be defined in terms of images/writing that produce sexual arousal. Some things that are considered pornography (bondage, male-to-male sex, peeing) do not arouse me in the slightest. One idea floating around this thread is that the intention of the producer plays a part in determining whether something is porn or not. But intention is something we must simply accept on faith--if Abby says she does or does not intend her work to cause arousal, then I have to take her at her word.

Erotica I see as art that deals with sexual desire or activity.

The comment I made about the human body being a beautiful piece of art is based on my belief that a defining characteristic of art (written, visual, musical, dance) is the conscious use of emotion, intuition, experience, technical skill, and intelligence to construct a representation of emotions, ideas, or events. Another way of stating this is purposeful design, which brings in the idea that a well-designed machine can be beautiful. The human body can be regarded as a machine, made of organic matter rather than inanimate material, but a machine nonetheless. My intuition is that a purposeful designer designed the body. For the sake of my argument, the identity of the purposeful designer (which is probablya redundant phrase) is not relevant.

That's how I see things. Can't say anything about Tracy Emin's bed because I haven't heard of it.

I think we need Liandra to yank us all back to reality... :D

[liandra]

I'm going to completely abandon all topics discussed thus far, for something a little more trivial and superficial. I hope you fellas won't mind too much, but I've just noticed my video is coming up next friday! It was so funny making this one (If it's the one I think it is). I let it slip to Abby that I used to dance at Drum and Bass gigs about 8 years ago back in UK. So she insisted that I show her (and subsequently all of you) a few moves that I could still manage to do. I was so thoroughly out of practice, and shape, it wasn't as easy as it used to be! No music either, but I think they were going to add some later. Abby made some modifications, as she thought it would all look better if I could stick my bum out further and wiggle it much more. I'm quite nervous about the results, though even if it's ghastly at least it has inspired me to loose a few pounds and get fit again. A woman once told me that every person should be able to pull up their own body weight at least once... just incase you should be dangling by your arms off a precipice someday.

[Duaane]

I thank you for the spelling corrections

Art and Eroticism sure overlap: Descriptions or depictions of sexual passion, and love making (lust/sexual human) that appeal to one's sense of aesthetics.

A lot of main stream art is erotic. My definitions are inclusive, not exclusive as I said there is no black or white, and things in a dynamic universe converge. :D


Do art and eroticism overlap? (i.e.is all, some, or no eroticism a form of art?) Apart from that little problem, I think those are useful categories. It would be good if everybody used the same words to label them, but apparently they don't :( . (I hope you don't mind my changing your spellings)

[Duaane]

Liandra firstly it is on the topic, sencond it does not sound superficial, sounds very interesting and I for one will enjoy viewing your movie(s).

;)

I'm going to completely abandon all topics discussed thus far, for something a little more trivial and superficial.
I used to dance at Drum and Bass gigs about 8 years ago back in UK. So she insisted that I show her (and subsequently all of you) a few moves that I could still manage to do.

[Vid Dude]

Liandra, it is indeed that video. Where you also explain in interesting detail how you broke the couch. And what you did when your friend from England visited.

You do have a fun life.

[baboo]

I am perfectly content to talk about precipices and dangly bits.

[bifman]

Once again a thank you to those that post above. Great reading! And doubly thank you Liandra for posting and posing, not to mention posing a great dialog. It's not often one is found frantically flipping through a dictionary and glancing at yonis in the same thread! (yoniis? yonies? crap! where's that fucking dictionary.....) This could be a great learning tool – a yoni every fourth page or so… we’ll have to talk to Webster. Works for me.

Originally Posted by liandra
Actually I've never heard anyone call it a yoni before. Where'd you get that jolly little term from?


My wife has used "yoni" forever -- the word "cunt", like "porn" has suffered so much negative connotations (here in US of A anyway) that it's just not easy to feel comfortable with. I'm proud to say we raised our daughter with Yoni! (...great bumper sticker I think, true after all :)) I've always associated it with Indian origins (the country) but I don't really know. I do know that you've certainly asked the question in the right place.......:)

--bif

[Aladin]

I once read this amusing (IMO)attempt at a definition:

" If it's about sex with ostrich feathers, it's erotica;if it's about sex with the whole ostrich
it's porn."

I Look forward to your video liandra.You are brainy and mega cute.

[liandra]

Liandra, it is indeed that video. Where you also explain in interesting detail how you broke the couch. And what you did when your friend from England visited.

You do have a fun life.
It's not all broken couches and debauchery! I promise. :o

I'll post some piccies tomorrow of the more mundane things I enjoy, to give you all a balanced perspective.

[artlover]

Looking forward to the video--I wanna hear about that broken couch.:D I broke a bed once--sad to say, I was the only one on it.:(

Loved the ostrich explanation...

[Luxman]

I broke a bed once--sad to say, I was the only one on it.:(
Perhaps you should have a look here (http://www.weightwatchers.com/index.aspx). :D

Lxm

PS: Sorry, devil made me write that, I'm innocent.

[calliope]

My intuition is that a purposeful designer designed the body.

That's what I thought you must be meaning.The human body as the creation of some greater conciousness or mind,rather than evolution.

......the human body being a beautiful piece of art is based on my belief that a defining characteristic of art (written, visual, musical, dance) is the conscious use of emotion, intuition, experience, technical skill, and intelligence to construct a representation of emotions, ideas, or events.

I'd agree completely with that,although I think it's only one of several requirements that need to be met.A corollary of that particular characteristic,is that art can't simply be that which could have arisen quite spontaneously without the artist.Also,for the sake of clarity,I would confine it to being the product of human conciousness,or mind,at least before considering how it might apply in other cases such as other animals,possible higher levels of mind in other universes,a supreme being,or any other construction.:)

Can't say anything about Tracy Emin's bed because I haven't heard of it.

Tracy Emin is an artist in the UK.One of her works was an unmade bed,littered with dirty laundry,contraceptives etc.,that fails to meet the corollary stated above.I think she took the view that as it was her conciousness that had produced it,it had to be seen in terms of art,either good or bad,but not in terms of art,or not art.



On your erotic/pornographic comments I'm still somewhat confused.

Quite a lot of what appears here on AW doesn't seem to me to be covered by either of the ideas that you convey.If you agree with that,then what terms would you use to describe it.?

This whole subject does interest me for all sorts of reasons,but I would hate to feel I was pissing anybody off,so I shan't be offended if anyone wants to tell me to shut up.:D

[Philos]

My intuition is that a purposeful designer designed the body. The human body as the creation of some greater conciousness or mind, rather than evolution.
The purposeful designer must have been a cheerful incompetent, since the human body is such a crappy design. It looks great but keeps breaking down in use, has a limited life, and is very difficult to repair. Probably some assistant in the drawing office knocked it out while the boss was away at a conference.

:D

[arsby]

That's what I thought you must be meaning.The human body as the creation of some greater conciousness or mind,rather than evolution.

I disagree with this. I firmly believe that our appreciation of the body evolved along with the evolution of the body.
You and I might not think of a Neanderthal woman as beautiful. However it is quite possible that a Neanderthal man might have thought her beautiful (in his primitive way). As the form evolved, the appreciation of the form evolved.

This is not to say I don't believe in "a greater consiousness or mind". I just believe that the greater consciousness is a force of goodness, and doesn't conflict with scientific evidence.

[arsby]

That aside, I'm *really* looking forward to those "piccies" Liandra's promising us.

Nothing about you is mundane, Liandra. Not in my book.

[Philos]

I firmly believe that ...I don't believe in belief.

:confused:

[artlover]

The human body as the creation of some greater conciousness or mind,rather than evolution.
You have accurately described my view, except that I see evolution as a tool used by a designing intelligence. For me to deny the evidence in favor of that theory would intellectually absurd. (This is why the creationists make me want to smite them :D. ) It may seem strange to think of a process based on apparently random mutations and natural selection to have an element of purpose, but it's some artists today are incorporating randomness into their work, and I think that may apply at a cosmological level. Most people who believe in a supreme being can't seem to grasp that such an entity would be subtler than they imagine.

I just believe that the greater consciousness is a force of goodness, and doesn't conflict with scientific evidence.
How can it? The intent of the scientific method is to produce empirically-verifiable knowledge of the nature of the universe, not to validate any belief system.

On your erotic/pornographic comments I'm still somewhat confused.
I'm just saying that what is pornographic to one person may not be to another--I gave some personal examples to illustrate. I prefer not to think of Abbywinters as a pornographic site because I associate pornography with trash. I agree that some of its content falls outside my attempts at definitions--much of AW is nudity. What I've been saying on the subject is a work in progress. I am not able to pigeonhole this sit--one thing I like about it.

It seems to be a site that celebrates young womanhood with an emphasis on sexuality--I don't think there is a single word that sums that up. I like the fact that many of the videos are young girls talking about being young girls who happen to be naked, and that other videos show young girls having sex. So whatever I am in a mood for, it's there. That and the fact that a bunch of us can gather online and discuss important ideas in an atmosphere of civility.

that art can't simply be that which could have arisen quite spontaneously without the artist
Agreed, which is why I used the word "conscious" in my definition.

I too am looking forward to seeing the "mundane" side of Liandra. And agree with Arsby's admiration.

[Philos]

"I see..."
"I believe..."
"I firmly believe..."
"My intuition..."

What kind of arguments are these?
As Abby would say, "Sheesh!" :)

Can we talk about Liandra's nipples now?

[artlover]

Point taken.

I see that Liandra's nipples, like the rest of her, are fine. :D This is, of course, an aesthetic judgment, since I have not (yet) been able to empirically verify in field conditions the precise qualities of large dark bumpy nipples, on feminists or any other women. :(

[Philos]

I have this instrument for making aesthetic judgments. It can register zero to 90 degrees (used to be 180), the angle being proportional to the aesthetic temperature of the specimen. Liandra's nipples are HOT! I think she must be Welsh ;)

[BigSpud]

"I see..."
"I believe..."
"I firmly believe..."
"My intuition..."

What kind of arguments are these?
As Abby would say, "Sheesh!" :)

Can we talk about Liandra's nipples now?I tried to all the way back here (http://forums.abbywinters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=36126#post36126). :)

Note that this was the most recent post in this thread

[liandra]

Ah! I love my nipples, not for they way they look, I always wanted smaller ones, but more because I can have an orgasm just from them being licked and nibbled. Oh it's an exquisite feeling, but when I try to do it myself, I can barely reach them and it's just not the same. :rolleyes:

A slight delay on those piccies I promised, but they will be online tomorrow.

I've got the flu so I'm off to nurse myself back to health. Anyone got any miracle cures they can recommend?

[liandra]

I have this instrument for making aesthetic judgments. It can register zero to 90 degrees (used to be 180), the angle being proportional to the aesthetic temperature of the specimen. Liandra's nipples are HOT! I think she must be Welsh ;)
Well that sounds like a pretty exceptional instrument, you should get it patented.;)

Why Welsh? I don't get it? aw, now I feel stupid... I lived in Wales when I was seven, but no I am not Welsh.

[artlover]

Oh Liandra, you've brought up a very popular topic here in Abbyland.:D Expect even more postings than the feminist ones.

I am frankly jealous. My nips do respond to stimulation, and it's pleasant, but nothing like what some women experience. I would need a tongue extension and a spine transplant to have more thrills.

Sorry to hear you have the flu. My recommendation involves plenty of fluids, lots of sleep, and telling the outside world not to bother me. Since you have a child, that's probably not so easily done.

I shall refer you to Philos for the explanation on the sexiness of Welsh women. I believe (oops! strike those last two words :D ) he can best explain it.

Looking forward to the pics, when you have a chance.

Get well soon... Artlover

[baboo]

Take lots of vitamin C. Won't cure you, but it will help.

[liandra]

Thanks for the tips on remedies for the flu. Today someone suggested that I eat steamed turnips and then steam my head over a bowl, I think they must have been pulling my leg

[calliope]

Anyone got any miracle cures they can recommend?
Raw garlic.Lots of it.

[liandra]

I can't get the photo's on, I've tried twice, anyone got any advice on how to do it?

[BigSpud]

I can't get the photo's on, I've tried twice, anyone got any advice on how to do it?check this out (http://forums.abbywinters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=35048#post35048) :)

The "file://..........." stuff that was in your post was saying that the file is on your local computer (which we don't have access to) hence no image appeared. The attach mechanism will put the pics in a list at the bottom of the message.

[arsby]

I see Liandra's been studying at the Alfred Hitchcock School of Suspense.

I can't wait!

Like the cat who ate the cheese, I'm waiting with baited breath.

[artlover]

Raw garlic.Lots of it.
telling the outside world not to bother me
Calliope's suggestion will help with mine :D

[liandra]

check this out (http://forums.abbywinters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=35048#post35048) :)

The "file://..........." stuff that was in your post was saying that the file is on your local computer (which we don't have access to) hence no image appeared. The attach mechanism will put the pics in a list at the bottom of the message.
Very well, as you have taken the time to tell me what was going wrong, I'll give it another try. Unfortunately I am total ludite, so I shall probably fail abysmally yet again. I am not one to take failure well, so the next post you get may be just a long paragraph of expletives, be assured, however, that should said paragraph occur they are directed only at myself.

[liandra]

Ok, the first is a picture of me catching my first fish

[liandra]

The second is the fist experience of being a fish, as it were.

[liandra]

Me and my sis, underwater.

[liandra]

First deep sea fishing trip, First shark I ever saw in the wild, first shark I caught and the biggest fish I ever caught!

[BigSpud]

Very well, as you have taken the time to tell me what was going wrong, I'll give it another try. Unfortunately I am total ludite, so I shall probably fail abysmally yet again. I am not one to take failure well, so the next post you get may be just a long paragraph of expletives, be assured, however, that should said paragraph occur they are directed only at myself.Hey Liandra, Were the expletives in the deleted message?? :)

You followed directions very well. Maybe you sell yourself short?

Weren't there more pics in the original post? :)

Spud

[artlover]

Hey Shark Girl! :)

Well done on the "mundane" photos. The one of you swimming in your white suit is very spunky (if I may presume to speak Strine) and that was quite a fish you caught!* Your sister is cute--expect offers. :D. I hope the appearance of the pics means that you are feeling better.

* Referring to the fish at the beach pic. Just saw the shark pic. You are a woman of many talents.

Can't help noticing that the guy next to you seems to be examining your breasts. :D

Or maybe I am telling on myself. :D

[liandra]

Hey Liandra, Were the expletives in the deleted message?? :)

You followed directions very well. Maybe you sell yourself short?

Weren't there more pics in the original post? :)

Spud
He he he. No they weren't but I'll give you an example of what the paragraph would have been, if you like. ;)

Thank you for the directions, it's helped me to redeem myself.

You're right, there is still a couple more to come...

[liandra]

Hey Shark Girl! :)

Well done on the "mundane" photos.

I hope the appearance of the pics means that you are feeling better.

Can't help noticing that the guy next to you seems to be examining your breasts. :D

OK so they weren't mundane...

Yeah, I'm feeling a lot better, thank you.

Hmmm...I distinctly remember getting that impression all day. My friend told me that's what you get for not wearing a bra...

[liandra]

Ok, now from on and under sea level, to 14,000 ft above it

[liandra]

and for the finale, the most incredible experience of my life... birth

[arsby]

Awwwww...

You are looking so so beautiful in that last picture.

Thanks so much for sharing these with us.

And now... I'm even more in love with you.

Your fawning and obedient servant,

Arsby

[liandra]

Ok, so there wasn't really a mundane picture among them. Forgive me for showing off a bit. Perhaps in a second installment, more true to the mundane theme, I'll post some photos of me in the library researching an essay, monocle in place, nose in a pile of books. As an excuse for the distinct lack of the 'mundane' I have to say I don't take many pictures of myself doing the housework and other really tiresome, dreary daily tasks like that. Though I have one of me on the toilet wierdly enough...

Li

P.S. No I don't really wear a monocle

[Philos]

I'll post some photos of me in the library researching an essay, As a fellow denizen of the library, that strikes me as positively pornographic - can't wait! ;)

Philos

[arsby]

Though I have one of me on the toilet wierdly enough...

Do you mean it's weird that you have a pic of you on the toilet, or you are on the toilet being weird.
If the latter, please post it.

Thank you,

Arsby

[artlover]

The picture of you and your child is truly beautiful--your expression is so serene. it reminds me of modigliani or matisse. your child is absolutely lovely. thank you for sharing it, liandra. i am very moved.

[Verity]

Hey Sista!
Those pics are great! I especially love the one of you skydiving, never knew you were such an extreme, errr let me correct myself, such an extreme sport kind of gal. I definitely think we should go bungy jumping or something together one day, or maybe something that neither you or I have done, something totally new! What is something that you have never had the chance to do but really want to? I'll have a little think and see what my brain can concoct.
Anyway for the meantime I will catch up on some of your words of wisdom I have fallen behind on.
Speak soon gorgeous!
V XXXXX

[liandra]

Hey Sista!
Those pics are great! I especially love the one of you skydiving, never knew you were such an extreme, errr let me correct myself, such an extreme sport kind of gal. I definitely think we should go bungy jumping or something together one day, or maybe something that neither you or I have done, something totally new! What is something that you have never had the chance to do but really want to? I'll have a little think and see what my brain can concoct.
Anyway for the meantime I will catch up on some of your words of wisdom I have fallen behind on.
Speak soon gorgeous!
V XXXXX
V,

Ooooooh, something totally new that neither you or I have done... What is that sport where people jump of cliffs and skyscrapers with a parachute...base jumping. Is it legal in Australia? I'd be game either way.

As for the bungee jumping, we could do a duet bungee jump...in the nude...video it and put it on AW. ;)

Looking forward to Friday.

Li xxxxx

[liandra]

As a fellow denizen of the library, that strikes me as positively pornographic - can't wait! ;)

Philos
As its for a fellow denizen I shall. I first came accross the word Denizen in a poem by Adrienne Rich, it always makes me think of her poetry when I hear/ read it.

[liandra]

Do you mean it's weird that you have a pic of you on the toilet, or you are on the toilet being weird.
If the latter, please post it.

Thank you,

Arsby
A bit of both

[Luxman]

As for the bungee jumping, we could do a duet bungee jump...in the nude...video it and put it on AW.
Well, that's a great idea, but you should be careful with these proposals if you don't mean it.
People around here jump on this kind of ideas (me too :)) and it could be that you'll regret to have written this.

Lxm

[liandra]

The picture of you and your child is truly beautiful--your expression is so serene. it reminds me of modigliani or matisse. your child is absolutely lovely. thank you for sharing it, liandra. i am very moved.
I love sharing it, I took so many pictures of her when she was first born... I lost most of them when we had to leave my ex-husband/ her dad. There was nothing like the love I felt when I held her the first time, I mean that, NOTHING comes close. I wept with joy and I didn't put her down for almost three months unless I was changing her clothes, nappy or washing her. She slept on my chest at night, and in a sling on my chest or back during the day. It changed me forever. That love, and her love made me a better person in more ways than I can explain.

[liandra]

Well, that's a great idea, but you should be careful with this proposals if you don't mean it.
People around here jump on this kind of ideas (me too :)) and it could be that you'll regret to have written this.

Lxm
Life is not for regrets, it is for living. I'd do it in a heartbeat! Strapped to Verity in the buff, as we fall head first towards the ground...Hell yeah!

If you want to contribute to the Verity/ Liandra Nude bungee fund just say the word...

[Luxman]

If you want to contribute to the Verity/ Liandra Nude bungee fund just say the word...
Abby?

Lxm

[arsby]

T'hell with the bungee.
How about Liandra strapped to Verity in the buff.
That'd do it for me!

[artlover]

I'd watch that, but only for aesthetic reasons. :D Throw in the GlideCam and you've got a sexy sci-fi spectacular unrivalled since Barbarella. :D

[arsby]

In the buff with the glidecam? She'd get all those stapmarks from the heavy camera equipment on her delicious nude body. Gotta hurt.

Nah, just strap the two naked ladies together. That'd be fun.

[artlover]

Friday. New video. Liandra. Need I say more? :)

[liandra]

It's a shame the bunjee idea got discarded so quickly, I kind of liked it. The distinct lack of response from verity seems that may have been one sided...

Incase your interrested I've just enrolled in my second semester for this year. I'm taking Sexuality and Decadence in Europe from the 18th to 20th century; "Murder and Mayhem" the London Underworld from the 18th to the 20th; Epic literature (Virgil, Homer); and Short Fiction, Classical and Modern.

I dropped feminism to do the extra history subject because I couldn't pick between them.

Ooooh I'm excited!

[liandra]

Friday. New video. Liandra. Need I say more? :)


Oh crap, Evangeline is a belly dancer... two nude dancing videos in one week. Does that happen a lot? I think my video is going to be fairly mediocre in comparison.

[Luxman]

Oh crap, Evangeline is a belly dancer... two nude dancing videos in one week. Does that happen a lot? I think my video is going to be fairly mediocre in comparison.
Nude dancing is always an eye catcher, especially with beautiful dancers like you and Evangeline.
I'm looking forward to see your video.

Lxm

[Philos]

Incase your interrested I've just enrolled in my second semester for this year. I'm taking Sexuality and Decadence in Europe from the 18th to 20th century; "Murder and Mayhem" the London Underworld from the 18th to the 20th; Epic literature (Virgil, Homer); and Short Fiction, Classical and Modern.
That sounds like a hell of a workload. I admire your guts in taking it on, and wish you success. :)

[liandra]

Oh crap, Evangeline is a belly dancer... two nude dancing videos in one week. Does that happen a lot? I think my video is going to be fairly mediocre in comparison.
It's just taken me 3 hours to download Evangeline's first video! Which one is the belly dancing on?

[Vid Dude]

The last one.

[Luxman]

It's just taken me 3 hours to download Evangeline's first video! Which one is the belly dancing on?
Narrowband?

Lxm

[liandra]

The last one.
Thanks

[liandra]

The last one.
So your a Kiwi are you? I bet you enjoyed the rugby over the weekend

[liandra]

That sounds like a hell of a workload. I admire your guts in taking it on, and wish you success. :)
Philos, thanks for your admiration but it probably sounds heavier than it is. Besides I need it, I feel lost if I'm not learning.

I saw your comment on Evangeline's belly dancing. I'm all intimidated now! Though I can't wait to see her, damn internet connection its taking forever! You get what you pay for, I suppose.

[Vid Dude]

So your a Kiwi are you? I bet you enjoyed the rugby over the weekend
Um. No. What rugby? Don't care. Stupid sport. As are most sports.

Sorry.

[Luxman]

Stupid... As are most sports.
Hah, I knew we are on the same wave lenght, absolutely my opinion.

Lxm

[artlover]

Incase your interrested I've just enrolled in my second semester for this year. I'm taking Sexuality and Decadence in Europe from the 18th to 20th century; "Murder and Mayhem" the London Underworld from the 18th to the 20th; Epic literature (Virgil, Homer); and Short Fiction, Classical and Modern.
Wow! May I suggest a term paper title to cover those bases: "Odyssey of Blood: The Influence of the Marquis de Sade on Jack the Ripper as Seen in the Fiction of Edgar Allen Poe" :D. You must be on a different academic calendar than in the US. My fall semester won't start till August.

I feel lost if I'm not learning
The sound you hear is Artlover swooning with desire.<3<3

It's just taken me 3 hours to download
The Few, the Proud, the Narrowbanders :D

[liandra]

It's just taken me 3 hours to download

The Few, the Proud, the Narrowbanders :D


It was worth the wait.

[liandra]

Um. No. What rugby? Don't care. Stupid sport. As are most sports.

Sorry.
No need to apologise, it's not like I invented sport.

[Philos]

May I be the first to congratulate you on a fantastic set of videos? From the classics lecture in section 1 to the orgasm at the end of section 4 the whole thing was just ... beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing your amazing self with us. <3

[artlover]

I even got a lesson on what those Ancient Greeks got up to with those giant dildos
In accordance with my Theory of Sexual Antiquity (i.e., all possible variations on sex that do not involve new technology were invented a very very long time ago) I would be surprised if the ancient Greeks did anything with dildos that aren't done now. But I shall soon find out, as I have only one hour and six minutes to go till Liandra's vid is downloaded. Any woman who can go from teaching us the classics to achieving orgasm in four easy lessons is one to be reckoned with.

[twogan]

Liandra,
I hope that this question is not too personal but I've got to ask.
In another thread Philos asks why the last video of your set just posted does not qualify for the 'intimate moments' section, and Vid Dude replied that it was because there was another person present during the proceedings. I said that another reason was that you didn't orgasm, at least there was no indication that you did. Was I right?

[tommcattz]

Incase your interrested I've just enrolled in my second semester for this year. I'm taking Sexuality and Decadence in Europe from the 18th to 20th century; "Murder and Mayhem" the London Underworld from the 18th to the 20th; Epic literature (Virgil, Homer); and Short Fiction, Classical and Modern.Just had a jolly half hour watching today's vids, and would like to join in the paeans of praise for an intelligent and beautiful woman! Love the stuff about Greece (d'you actually read Greek? You sound like you do) - I don't really believe all that stuff about intracrural intercourse, do you...? Enjoy the epic literature: book four of Virgil's Aeneid is more or less the best thing ever written...

Oh, and at the risk of being crude, your nipples are possibly the loveliest thing I've ever seen... ;)

[baboo]

Mmmm... did someone say belly dancing? I saw Ana a few days ago, and she's lovely.

http://abbywinters.com/main.php?page=profile&model=561

Oh, and I enjoyed your vids, Liandra. You seemed to be absent-mindedly touching yourself in one vid before the performance. Were you getting a bit worked up thinking about it?

[liandra]

May I be the first to congratulate you on a fantastic set of videos? From the classics lecture in section 1 to the orgasm at the end of section 4 the whole thing was just ... beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing your amazing self with us. <3I haven't seen them (my videos) yet, though Verity told me the she and her fellows at AW found some amusement in them. Anyway they've been on my mind over the weekend. Thanks for letting me know you liked them, it's so unnerving putting yourself out there like us girls do on this site, and it means alot to have the appreciation voiced.

I would be surprised if the ancient Greeks did anything with dildos that aren't done now.Considering how surprised I continue to be by the accomplishments of the Ancient Greeks the longer I study them, I should imagine we could learn a lot from them, and why would dildos be any different. I'll keep researching and tell you if I come across anything I deem to be enlightening.

I said that another reason was that you didn't orgasm, at least there was no indication that you did. Was I right?Not on camera but I did when Abby whipped out her great big penguin dildo and gave me a good seeing to. Unfortunately Verity, knowing that Abby's identity was top secret, put the camera down and joined in, as she knew the proceeding events and the orgasm would be cut. Sorry about that. If you bully Abby I'm sure she'll get me to do an intimate moments for you, and as she won't be in the room the filming won't be interupted by her insatiable lust.

d'you actually read Greek? You sound like you do Yes I do, but only Ancient Greek, not Modern Greek

- I don't really believe all that stuff about intracrural intercourse, do you...? Intercrural intercourse certainly did occurr between classical athenian citizen males. There are vase paintings and other physical evdidence that attest to the fact. Look up indepth writings on eromenoi and erastes and the state condoned pedarasty that was part of education if you're interested. It was of course written by certain Classical Athenian Philosophers that male love should be above sexual desire, which was the domain of animals and women, but that wasn't the case in practice.

Enjoy the epic literature: book four of Virgil's Aeneid is more or less the best thing ever written...I have read the Aeneid previously for my own recreation, I shall pay particular attention to book 4 when reading it again. However, I have always cherished the Illiad's book 22.

Mmmm... did someone say belly dancing? I saw Ana a few days ago, and she's lovely.
WOW, Thanks for the recommendation, I've just looked at the stills and I can not wait to download the vids.

[artlover]

It was of course written by certain Classical Athenian Philosophers that male love should be above sexual desire, which was the domain of animals and women, but that wasn't the case in practice. Perhaps it just means that Plato hadn't gotten any in a long time... :D. Maybe he was unpopular with the sheep... ;)

I am sure others will plead to Abby for you to do an IM (bullying Abby never works :D). I'm curious to see the infamous Penguin Dildo. Now, unless the Greeks sailed a lot further than we know, that's a clear advantage for the 21st century. If wonder if it looks like Opus from Bloom County. He was a horny fellow, when he wasn't been seduced by late-night TV ads..

Intercrural intercourse certainly did occurr between classical athenian citizen males.
Gives new meaning to the term "thunder thighs", eh? :p

[BigSpud]

The wonders (http://www.answers.com/topic/intercrural-intercourse) of what one can learn at AW.com

[liandra]

The wonders (http://www.answers.com/topic/intercrural-intercourse) of what one can learn at AW.com
Good link BigSpud, I"ve never heard that about Oxford and Princeton before!

[liandra]

Any of you lads or ladies attend this pretigious institutions? Can anyone varify the associations?

I'm curious, I know many of my female friends explored sexuality as adolescents with the same sex as much as with the opposite sex. Does this happen as much with guys? I'm going to assume it's either less likely, or less likely to be admitted. Is this because men have much more to fear from the stigma attached to homosexual acts?

Did you know that Queen Victoria refused to establish a law against lesbianism because she refused to believe such a thing existed. However, she harboured a private fascination with the writings of Sappho, an Ancient Greek female poet who wrote of her romantic love for women and men. Queen Victoria not only translated and read Sappho but drew many pictures of her too. No such thing as Lesbianism? "the lady doth protest too much, meethinks"

[baboo]

Guys were never my thing, and the thought of fooling around with them is pretty gross to me. Not that I didn't have my chance if I'd wanted to, there were a couple that made advances towards me, and it ended one friendship. And yes, the social stigma is pretty bad for guys, especially if the guy is effiminate in any way. In fact, acting like a "faggot" is probably worse than actually being homosexual.

As for Victoria and Sappho, I dunno. It could just be that she was naive. My general impression of feminine sexuality is that it is possible for straight women to enjoy the beauty of the female form, and perhaps even get turned on by it, yet still not desire to have sexual relations with women. And I see women speak of having "girl crushes" and such which refer to a very strong feeling of love for another female, yet still not of a sexual nature.

[Peter552]

I'm curious, I know many of my female friends explored sexuality as adolescents with the same sex as much as with the opposite sex. Does this happen as much with guys? I'm going to assume it's either less likely, or less likely to be admitted. Is this because men have much more to fear from the stigma attached to homosexual acts?
There was a very pretty Jewish boy in New York in 1974. We talked about sex, we showered together and dried each other's backs. That was enough exploration for me for a lifetime, but alas, he fell in love with me so I had to end the correspondence. Thank you for reminding me, though.

[artlover]

I think a lot of men are afraid they might like sex with another man--they are often the ones who are most vocally against it. :D The only thing I have done was compare penises with another 9-year-old boy. Didn't seem to affect either of us. There have been a few times when I have gotten to show another man my emotional vulnerability that I felt a mild attraction. Nothing happened. I find male-male sex to be distasteful--not unnatural (happens all the time) but distasteful. I make a distinction, though, between my non-interest in sex with men and my political commitment to gay and lesbian rights. I have had a man ask me at a party if I frequented the local gay bar--I said no and it was no big deal to either of us. Another guy made some definite proposals, and was so lacking in style that I may not have agreed to it if I were gay. I do find some men to be physically attractive. But that number pales in comparison to the enormous number of women I would like to see naked.

I think quite a few adolescent males experiment--most keep it a secret. Sadly, homophobia forces many impressionable young men to keep secrets, and become ashamed. I would certainly hope that if a man fell in love with me, I would inform him of my non-interest in the most respectful and tactful way possible.

On the other hand, as Woody Allen says, bisexuality doubles one's chances of a date on Saturday night. :D

[Verity]

Hey Liandra,

What an interesting topic you have managed to open here. Like most men wondering what really goes on in the girls changing rooms after P.E., I have always been intrigued to know what went on between closed doors in the boys communal showers? It's great that some of you can be upfront and open about personal experiences even if they are little encounters that you probably don't dwell upon that much.

I remember I used to always get asked if my brother was gay or not which embarassed the hell out of me. " No he bloody well isn't!!!" I would snap back in disgust. He went through a phase of wearing make-up (just eyeliner) and nail varnish and it made my life hell. I hated him for it and couldn't understand why he would want to do that to himself or to me. I also got told my brother kissed some of his friends when he was drunk on a night out in Torquay. By this time I'd had enough, I couldn't take it anymore and starting hating my brother. Looking back on it was I being a total drama queen but at the time I felt really strongly.

Turns out he's not gay, at least not that I know of, and it was just a phase he was going through where he wanted to be different from all the 'captain of the basketball team' guys around him. And kissing his friends when he was a drunk teenager, who cares, it's just a bit of fun.

I'm sure if I asked him now If he had had any emotional feelings for a boy he wouldn't be a ble to tell me the truth where as I can quite openly say I had feelings for a few of my friends that made me want to explore my sexuality etc.

On a completely different topic, naked base jumping...where and when? I'm game if you are girlfriend. Just no alcohol for me this time, yeah? Let's not have a repercussion of friday night ;) Although it was alot of fun...

[artlover]

I have always been intrigued to know what went on between closed doors in the boys communal showers?
Dressing, undressing, soaping... and a lot of men working very hard not to Look at Anyone Else's You-Know-What.:D. Cuz if you do look--even once--you're gay for life!! :eek:

God we were stupid back then (ages 15-17). In the US, at least, it's considered gay to look anywhere below the neck of the guy next to you at the urinal. The accepted mode is straight ahead, or down, to make sure you're streaming correctly. This is so common that advertisers have taken to putting adverts. (For actual products, I mean, not the usual scribbled offers. :D ).

[BigSpud]

My only homosexual experience:

There is a park on the way home to my house (I live in the country) from the nearest "big city". For years there were never any cars parked there. One day I started noticing bunches of cars. It continued for some time and I was curious so one late afternoon I stopped by.

There was a guy in a white business shirt walking down the path and I said, "Hi. I had noticed the increase in the interest in the park and wondered what it looked like since I had never stopped before." He asked if I was aware of the controversy in the area. I said yes because there had been quite a big deal about the use of the land artound for farming or residential.

We walked farther back into the park and he stopped turned around and grabbed my crotch! I removed his hand and said that was not the kind of experience I was interested in and beat it out of there fast.

Then I realized that we had been talking with different meanings to our words. Everything we said had 2 interpretations! I haven't been back. :)

[baboo]

Then I realized that we had been talking with different meanings to our words. Everything we said had 2 interpretations! I haven't been back. :)

Yeah, and you know, that really pisses me off. You shouldn't be made to feel unwelcome (or get sexually assaulted in your case) in a public park. I really enjoy using some of the local parks for hiking and such, and these damn horndogs have turned a couple of the local sanctuaries into meet markets. It'd be nice to go and not have some guy old enough to be my grandfather trying to get my phone number, or leaving anonymous notes on my windshield. Geeze, that's what bars are for, go to one next time.

[Duaane]

Yes the boys shower, I hated them. Most boys/young men, in them were bigger in a "deflated state". So I felt inadaquite(sp). Took me till my mid twenties to learn "I was not small" (penis size).

Gay encounters, age 8-13 played "doctor" and both sexs were involved. Closest same sex "sex" I have every had was where a few guys masturbated together (same room). To be honest I was raped at age 13 by a guy (30 something), and he caused permanent damage. Sooo .. I was homophobic (may still have some anti "male same sex").

Never crossed into female same sex, I love watching. I do not have objections to someone male being homosexual, just I let him know, do it some where I am not "Please".

[tommcattz]

Yes I do, but only Ancient Greek, not Modern GreekStill quite unusual...

Intercrural intercourse certainly did occurr between classical athenian citizen males. There are vase paintings and other physical evdidence that attest to the fact. Look up indepth writings on eromenoi and erastes and the state condoned pedarasty that was part of education if you're interested. It was of course written by certain Classical Athenian Philosophers that male love should be above sexual desire, which was the domain of animals and women, but that wasn't the case in practice.I think I expressed myself clumsily... I'm sure intercrural intercourse did happen, probably between men-men and men-women (and still does... ;) ), but I always suspected that a lot of what passed for intercrural intercourse between men was in fact anal... and that, then as today, a lot of denial then took place...

Dear me, what subjects you do end up talking about.

I have read the Aeneid previously for my own recreation, I shall pay particular attention to book 4 when reading it again. However, I have always cherished the Illiad's book 22.Fair enough: it's a stunning book (did it at school way back when).

[artlover]

Baboo, would you please stop the derogatory language? You've already used two insulting terms for gay men. I am sorry that you have had unpleasant encounters, but there is no need to denigrate an entire group of people for the actions of a few. (I emphasize few.) I have known quite a few gay men in my life, including two who were dear friends of my family, and only one of them ever made an untoward gesture, which I have already mentioned. I am not talking about "political correctness" here, but the simple fact that we ought to speak decently of people who are different in some ways.

Straight but not narrow, Artlover

[sweatyfox]

Hi Liandra,

Just thought I'd pop in from the UK and say I thought you're photoset and videos were both fantastic and combined they did justice to your beauty, intelligence and sexuality.

I enjoyed your stories in the videos. Sure tales of a bit of girl on girl action are arousing to me anyway but your stories were all the more interesting and erotic as you put them in some kind of context (stages of your life) and there was a strong emotional aspect there as well.

Anyway I hope you'll stick around and chat for a little while longer, eventually models tend to move on (dunno if we bore them gradually!) but it is always great to learn a little more about who you are (then can be gleaned from just the photos and video).

SF

[baboo]

artlover, I don't feel as though I am being derogatory to homosexual men in general. If you have something specific in mind that you take issue with, then mention it specifically and we can have an adult conversation about the context in which the word was used.

[BigSpud]

artlover, I don't feel as though I am being derogatory to homosexual men in general. If you have something specific in mind that you take issue with, then mention it specifically and we can have an adult conversation about the context in which the word was used.I suspect he is talking about your reply to my post. "Darned horndogs" might be considered derogatory.

One thing that maybe wasn't clear enough about my experience was that I was "checked out" so to speak, but I wasn't understanding the meaning. It might have been a very different experience if the guy could have asked me if I had heard that this was a popular meeting place for homosexual men and was I there for that purpose?

Spud

[baboo]

Well, my use of the word "horndog" just refers to their sexual appetite. Where I'm from at least, horndog is usually applied to straight males, so I don't see what the problem is in using it. And as applied to straight males, it is just as often used in a "derogatory" fashion as it is a recognition of virility, and therefore a somewhat positive connotation. Most all young males are horndogs, btw.

As for "faggot", yeah, I knew that would be a bit inflammatory when I wrote it, and chose to put it in quotes for that reason. But not using the word doesn't really make the point. And the point is that men who behave in a feminine manner are, in general, not respected by other men. And despite the existence of "bears" and other more (appearance-wise at least) masculine gays, homosexuality in my society is associated with the feminine male. There's not much of a culture here of the Greek warrior homosexual. So, I'm going to stick to my word use here. If it offends you, then feel free to insert the word "sissy" where you see it.

Liandra, if my comments here offend you, I'll be happy to leave the thread. Just trying to answer your question in as straightforward a manner as possible.

[alleyes1]

Baboo,

I believe that you certainly have the right to how you believe and what language is used. Without getting into specifics, my general problem is that you are giving labels and generalations to characterize people. My gosh there are plenty of homosexual men that are not "feminine" and could kick my ass in a heartbeat. What you say may be true about some of societies stereotypes but while we may disagree with others we need to respect their right to be them without using labels and stereotype language.

Alleyes

[baboo]

Alleyes, Liandra specifically asked about the stigma attached to homosexuality wrt males:

I'm curious, I know many of my female friends explored sexuality as adolescents with the same sex as much as with the opposite sex. Does this happen as much with guys? I'm going to assume it's either less likely, or less likely to be admitted. Is this because men have much more to fear from the stigma attached to homosexual acts?

And what I pointed out is the stigma as I see it. You really can't NOT talk about the stereotypes and generalizations here if you wish to understand.

[alleyes1]

Ah, I see what you mean. I must have read it out of context from what you're intent was.
My apologies. :)

Allleyes

[artlover]

So, Liandra, how's your "Murder and Mayhem" class? What controversies does it stir up? :D Is the professor fond of alliteration? Are you taking "Violence and Villianry" next year? How about "Plunder and Pillage"? "Death and Destruction"? "Boobs and Buttocks"? -- hold on, that's abbywinters, not school. :D

Artlover, now on much-needed vacation. :D Send donations to:

Artlover Vacation Fund
Green Shack at the End of the Beach
Nip-n-Tuck Nudist Resort
Gulf of Mexico

[alleyes1]

Liandra, I have been wanting to ask you two questions:

1) How did you get so interested in ancient Greece?

2)What types of things have we (in the western world) inherited from the greeks?
(I mean apart from dildos !!!) :D

Alleyes

[liandra]

There was a very pretty Jewish boy in New York in 1974. We talked about sex, we showered together and dried each other's backs. That was enough exploration for me for a lifetime, but alas, he fell in love with me so I had to end the correspondence. Thank you for reminding me, though.
Alas not, I'm deeply touched by your story and glad to have remined yu of it.

[liandra]

So, Liandra, how's your "Murder and Mayhem" class? What controversies does it stir up? :D Is the professor fond of alliteration? Are you taking "Violence and Villianry" next year? How about "Plunder and Pillage"? "Death and Destruction"? "Boobs and Buttocks"? -- hold on, that's abbywinters, not school. :D

Artlover, now on much-needed vacation. :D Send donations to:

Artlover Vacation Fund
Green Shack at the End of the Beach
Nip-n-Tuck Nudist Resort
Gulf of Mexico
I don't start it till the 18th of July so it hasn't stirred anything yet, I am still hunting for books. Alliteration isn't a requisite for the class I don't think, but I'll make sure I make use of it in my essays. It might sway me into his favour!

As a history student, every word you've used in that paragraph has been deeply evocative, even boobs and buttocks. Just check out "The Complete History or Eroticism", or the eroctica of greece and rome, or the sexuality and decadence of europe since the renaissance. Excuse my spelling, I've been drining heavily.

[liandra]

Liandra, I have been wanting to ask you two questions:

1) How did you get so interested in ancient Greece?

2)What types of things have we (in the western world) inherited from the greeks?
(I mean apart from dildos !!!) :D

Alleyes1) Because of my interest in their mythology since I was a small child

2) Oh my... Now there is a question, have you heard of democracy, misogyny, theatre, philosophy, science, homosexuality? and those are just a taster...

[liandra]

Alleyes, Liandra specifically asked about the stigma attached to homosexuality wrt males:



And what I pointed out is the stigma as I see it. You really can't NOT talk about the stereotypes and generalizations here if you wish to understand.
I'm tired and won't commit right now to anything, but I know many historical homosexuals have brought great things into the world, just as many other non-mainstream men and women have, sometimes more than any oher group, and using stereotypes and bigotry to supress those societies WILL WITH OUT A DOUBT be detrimental to society as a whole.

[alleyes1]

1) Because of my interest in their mythology since I was a small child

2) Oh my... Now there is a question, have you heard of democracy, misogyny, theatre, philosophy, science, homosexuality? and those are just a taster...
HeHe, I know all of them except misogyny. Was that the bonus question??:)

Did they give us fraternity and sororities too? I wondered because of the greek letters. Also, are you in a sorority or women's group like that?

Alleyes

[Philos]

many historical homosexuals have brought great things into the world,
All you IT freaks out there should bless Alan Turing in your nightly prayers.

Did they give us fraternity and sororities too?
These two words have Latin roots, not Greek (frater = brother, soror = sister)

[alleyes1]

Man, I never cease to learn something everytime I come to this site !!!:)

[Peter552]

Excuse my spelling, I've been drining heavily.I hate it when a girl drines too much :p

[malleswaram]

Lastly - i feel that it is women who in the world history have the upperhand. It was men who suffered.

[Philos]

Lastly? Do you have a premonition of impending doom? You should have!!!

[daimm9]

Philosophy, History and Linguistics on a "Girlee" site!

I love it!

DaiMM

[liandra]

On a completely different topic, naked base jumping...where and when? I'm game if you are girlfriend. Just no alcohol for me this time, yeah? Let's not have a repercussion of friday night ;) Although it was alot of fun...
No alcohol? that's leaping from one extreme to another. Anyway I think our fellow revelers appreciated the raunchy alcohol feuled dance fest, though I have an inkling the second act was less popular. Ah, anyway, we won't go there ;)

Naked base jumping...hmmm...you pick the building I'll get the parachutes

[liandra]

Hi Liandra,

Just thought I'd pop in from the UK and say I thought you're photoset and videos were both fantastic and combined they did justice to your beauty, intelligence and sexuality.

I enjoyed your stories in the videos. Sure tales of a bit of girl on girl action are arousing to me anyway but your stories were all the more interesting and erotic as you put them in some kind of context (stages of your life) and there was a strong emotional aspect there as well.

Anyway I hope you'll stick around and chat for a little while longer, eventually models tend to move on (dunno if we bore them gradually!) but it is always great to learn a little more about who you are (then can be gleaned from just the photos and video).

SF
Thank you very much sweaty fox, I am glad you like them. I haven't got any plans to abandon my visits to the discourses, this thread specifcally, but I am back at uni now so they are likely to be few and far between. Actually, after some consideration I don't think I'll be working with Abby Winters as a model again, but as long as my sign on works I'll be happy to come and have a chat when a gap in my studies permit me the time to do so. Being a part of AW has been an enlightening experience, and has been made all the more pleasurable for having the oppotunity to interact with you all. So thanks to you SF, and everyone else who has dropped in for a chat with me so far.

[liandra]

Liandra, if my comments here offend you, I'll be happy to leave the thread. Just trying to answer your question in as straightforward a manner as possible.
I appreciate the honesty and thank you to everyone who responded. To be honest I am a little disappointed that the response to this question took on such a negative tone, but that is not so surprising really. I am sorry for anyone who was been the victim of some kind of assault, abuse or awkward sexual misunderstanding. I don't think these things should reflect on the gay community as whole. I think I was hoping to get a few stories that I could fantasize over but I know I'm probably asking the wrong group of guys on the wrong website.

[liandra]

So, Liandra, how's your "Murder and Mayhem" class? What controversies does it stir up? :D Is the professor fond of alliteration? Are you taking "Violence and Villianry" next year? How about "Plunder and Pillage"? "Death and Destruction"? "Boobs and Buttocks"? -- hold on, that's abbywinters, not school. :D

Artlover, now on much-needed vacation. :D Send donations to:

Artlover Vacation Fund
Green Shack at the End of the Beach
Nip-n-Tuck Nudist Resort
Gulf of Mexico
I start classes on Monday, I'll let you know if my professor has an OCD that reduces him to speaking in alliterated pairs of words as soon as I know myself.

If I could take a subject called Boobs and Buttocks you know I'd be there, with bells on!

[liandra]

Lastly - i feel that it is women who in the world history have the upperhand. It was men who suffered.
Ok, so would you like to elaborate on that claim, I'm interested to see how you back it up?

[Philos]

If I could take a subject called Boobs and Buttocks you know I'd be there, with bells on!
On which? ;)

[liandra]

On which? ;)
Both.

actually speaking of bells, that's just reminded me, in renaissance Italy the prostitutes used to wear heals on their shoes and bells in their hair to let everyone know they were a woman of ill repute. In Ancient Greece street prostitutes had sandels with the words follow me carved in reverse on the bottom, so it would leave the message in their foot prints.

[calliope]

In Ancient Greece street prostitutes had sandels with the words follow me carved in reverse on the bottom, so it would leave the message in their foot prints.

Is that the idea underlying the phrase "Fuck-me shoes".?

[artlover]

In Ancient Greece street prostitutes had sandels with the words follow me carved in reverse on the bottom, so it would leave the message in their foot prints. Aha! The birth of advertising! :D

I wonder if they wiggled their ass, too, to send the message to the illiterate folks...

[beanazoid]

Hi Liandra,
Your thread is great reading.
Thanks for sharing so much with us! Thanks for the pics and vids, I can never see enough pretty brown-eyed, brunettes.:)
-beanazoid
P.S. This is one of my favorite pics
http://www.abbywinters.com/main.php?page=image&index=35&shoot=2163

[baboo]

yes, a great read indeed. most interesting thread on this forum, i think.

[Philos]

P.S. This is one of my favorite pics
http://www.abbywinters.com/main.php?page=image&index=35&shoot=2163

Ooh! That wicked smile - no wonder we all love her!!!

[liandra]

yes, a great read indeed. most interesting thread on this forum, i think.
Why thank you baboo, but I know I can not hog all the credit, much as I'd love to.

[liandra]

Ooh! That wicked smile - no wonder we all love her!!!
And thank you too Philos, for the "wicked smile" I can take all the credit.

[artlover]

Liandra, in addition to being brainy and beautiful and naughty, you are a shining example of good dental hygiene. (I know, I know, the three words a girl longs to hear, eh?) :D

I am still thinking about those sandals. On a windy day at the beach on dry sand, the window of opportunity for exposure to the message could be brief indeed. :) Now I am thinking about dark-haired ringletty olive-skinned Greek women in short togas... which I realize is an anachronism... and I realize your comment on prostitutes was not gender-limited... but it's my fantasy, bwahahaha!!...

Question: if polyandry is when a woman is married to more than one husband, what is polyliandry? :D

[BigSpud]

Liandra, in addition to being brainy and beautiful and naughty, you are a shining example of good dental hygiene. (I know, I know, the three words a girl longs to hear, eh?) :DYou sound like Mrs Roops :)

[artlover]

Well, there the resemblance ends, my friend... :)

[liandra]

Liandra, in addition to being brainy and beautiful and naughty, you are a shining example of good dental hygiene. (I know, I know, the three words a girl longs to hear, eh?) :D
I am proud to say I have never had or needed a filling in my life, but I did used to smoke alot, which is probably worse. I still smoke when I am out at a club, but I probably don't need to as I'd get enough nicotine just breathing. I can't stand the thought of a cigarette when I'm not out on the razz, so it's not the addiction, it's the habit. anyhoo...

Question: if polyandry is when a woman is married to more than one husband, what is polyliandry? :D
Most of me nearest and dearest would shudder at the thought, one liandry is most definitely enough.
(P.S. When it comes to fantasy, anachronisms can be overlooked)

You sound like Mrs Roops :)
Who is Mrs Roops?

[Philos]

Who is Mrs Roops?
This (http://forums.abbywinters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=17338#post17338)is Mrs Roops, a foul-mouthed, dirty-minded, hairy-arsed, exquisitely beautiful dentist, with whom we are all madly in love <3

;)

[artlover]

And a credit to the Welsh people, I might add. Good on you, Philos for providing that link. Together the Roopses contributed witty, erudite, and filthy commentary to our threads. May Providence steer them our way again one day.

(P.S. When it comes to fantasy, anachronisms can be overlooked) Hear, hear. A dear friend loves those Xena-Warrior Princess type shows where they all speak modern, slangy English. ("What's shakin', Hercules?"). Once I saw Xena perform the first tracheotomy. Gotta love the Xena. Oops I am off on another tangent. Better up the medication. :)

one liandry is most definitely enough. Oh I dunno. If there were an Aussie Liandra and a Liandra, say, within an hour's drive of the Artlover Mansion (to pick a location completely at random) I think that would be a good thing. Of course, my interest would be strictly in having long discussions about feminism; any other form of intercourse would never ever ever ever enter my mind. Nah uh. Not for one moment. Nosiree bob! Perish the thought. Wouldn't happen. Not in a gazillion years. You could wait for all of geologic time and I would never think of your sensuous, enticing, alluring, wonderful naughty bits. Negativo on that one.

And since I never make jokes on this website, or any other, or with any of my friends and family, or even complete strangers, you can take me completely at my word.

[liandra]

This (http://forums.abbywinters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=17338#post17338)is Mrs Roops, a foul-mouthed, dirty-minded, hairy-arsed, exquisitely beautiful dentist, with whom we are all madly in love <3

;)

I can see why you love her.

Must go, gotta polish my man's knob!!!!!!!!!!


What a way to sign off. Shame she had to leave, did her husband post too?

[liandra]

Hear, hear. A dear friend loves those Xena-Warrior Princess type shows where they all speak modern, slangy English. ("What's shakin', Hercules?"). Once I saw Xena perform the first tracheotomy. Gotta love the Xena. Oops I am off on another tangent. Better up the medication. :)
I have to admit I'd marry the first man who had access to the xena costume room and liked a bit of role play with his foreplay.

Oh I dunno. If there were an Aussie Liandra and a Liandra, say, within an hour's drive of the Artlover Mansion (to pick a location completely at random) I think that would be a good thing. Of course, my interest would be strictly in having long discussions about feminism; any other form of intercourse would never ever ever ever enter my mind. Nah uh. Not for one moment. Nosiree bob! Perish the thought. Wouldn't happen. Not in a gazillion years. You could wait for all of geologic time and I would never think of your sensuous, enticing, alluring, wonderful naughty bits. Negativo on that one.
Actually I went for my citizenship interview just recently, so soon I really will be a "fair dinkum aussie" but I also be a pommerette. Dual citizenship, ahhh, what a blessing. I think I'll always think of myself as English but I felt at home the minute I set foot on Aussie soil.

So if these long discussions on feminism occured whilst I was dressed as Xena and working up a sweat practicing my back flips and high kicks would that make it even harder for you? ;)

[artlover]

No, it would be quite easy. I would surrender at once. I know my limits. :D

[Philos]

I can see why you love her.

What a way to sign off. Shame she had to leave, did her husband post too?
This thread (http://forums.abbywinters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3637&page=1&pp=40&highlight=aberystwyth)has contributions from Mr Roops, artlover, and myself, as well as Mrs Roops and one or two others, including a very nice Russian guy called Duaane.

[liandra]

This thread (http://forums.abbywinters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3637&page=1&pp=40&highlight=aberystwyth)has contributions from Mr Roops, artlover, and myself, as well as Mrs Roops and one or two others, including a very nice Russian guy called Duaane.
Oh my, that was the funniest thing I've read in a while, when she posted the piccie of her anus, and then...
Ahem. What's the best way to get butter off my screen. :) then...
Just try licking then...
But be careful - you wouldn't want to end up with a mouth full of pixels...
I was LMAO. I hardly ever use acronyms so when I do you know it's gotta be true. Now I really want Mrs Roops to come back too! Any woman that's willing to post a picture of her anus, consider re-enacting the butter scene from Last Tango in Paris and talk about getting Strawberry Bavarian Cream up her jacksie all in one thread would certainly steal my heart. I see you had a special rapport with her. You lucky bugger.

[mrpinkeyes]

Hi liandra



Just a quick hello and thank you for your shoot. We are always appreciative of the models that post on the boards, somehow adds something to their pictures. Makes it more like your viewing the good looking girl from school that you smiled every time she spoke to you and dreamed about seeing her in her full glory. Thanks



Mr PinkEyes

[mrpinkeyes]

ps. Thanks for the Rosanna spotting..... does that mean you can also be found on beautiful agony?

[Philos]

I see you had a special rapport with her. You lucky bugger.
Just a mild behind-the-scenes internet friendship. Nothing m'learned friends need get excited about. It's a pity Mrs Roops has left us, but never mind: we now have you and Genevieve posting your thoughts: two equally brainy, beautiful and dirty-minded women, so all is not lost. :)

[arsby]

we now have you and Genevieve posting your thoughts
Now, Philos, go to Evangeline and apologize for forgetting her name. (I guess they do both have "v" in them, so you're close.) :)

This, of course, is a symptom of that dreaded disease, CMS. Crumbling Mind Syndrome. The major symptom is finding yourself in the kitchen, looking around, and saying, "I know I came here for something!"
The only known cure is sex, and lots of it. At least, it's an excuse to have sex and lots of it. :D

[artlover]

It's closely related to CRS Syndrome--Can't Remember Shit. In advanced stages, you have to be reminded what sex it and how to do it. :)

[arsby]

Also known as CRAFT disease.
Can't Remember A Freakin Thing.

What were we talking about?

[Philos]

Sorry, Evangeline. My memory is perfect, but not immune to attack by witchcraft :eek: Anyway Genevieve is a near-anagram of Evangeline :rolleyes: .

[liandra]

Hi liandra



Just a quick hello and thank you for your shoot. We are always appreciative of the models that post on the boards, somehow adds something to their pictures. Makes it more like your viewing the good looking girl from school that you smiled every time she spoke to you and dreamed about seeing her in her full glory. Thanks



Mr PinkEyes
Well my mother always told me sharing is caring, I guess she should have been more clear on the boudaries of that principal...

[liandra]

ps. Thanks for the Rosanna spotting..... does that mean you can also be found on beautiful agony?
yep, #0085. I also think you should check out #0309, she's on www.ishotmyself.com (http://www.ishotmyself.com) as Zille and she's luurvely. She won the ISM art prize over there last month. She's also got her own free website www.zilledefeu.com (http://www.zilledefeu.com)

[liandra]

I just thought I would put this here as well as in the discussion it was posted in.

[liandra]

Well I'm going to write a little update on my life, as I am sitting here waiting for my laundry to dry. First week back at uni was good, very slow, there was a strike the first day back against the Volantary Student Unionism (herein known as VSU) proposal in parliment at the moment. So the Student Association building is covered in anti VSU grafiti and everyone was having a massive party on the lawns, instead of being in class. Most of my lecturer's cancelled tutorials and some cancelled lectures aswell in support of the students strike. So we all hung around, had a massive barb-b-q and listened to some very very talented uni bands. So the slack pace at uni allowed me to do another shoot for www.ishotmyself.com (http://www.ishotmyself.com/) (see above post), and most of you will have got the story behind the half crop on the body hair in other discourses (to shave or not to shave, is the title of the thread to be specific), so I won't repeat myself. The weekend before uni started i bewailed my loss of freedom with my mates at a Melbourne all night all day club, my little girl was with my Mum for two days, so I washed that Mum feeling right out of my hair and partied harder than I had in at least a month. I busted some moves on the dance floor, with abrielle (that's her AW name), who is a little vixen! Most enjoyable 24 hours! I'm always glad to have my sprog back though, she is a wonderful kid, and adore her, and so does most everyone that meets her. I've been checking out primary schools for this week. I think I've settled on one and she'll be starting there in January, I'm so excited. She thinks I'm nuts. She's probably right.

[mrpinkeyes]

Hi all check out the following link for hours of entertainment. This doesn't, of cause, include the loverly Liandra because she doesn't need a mouse to achieve the same effect.
http://milked.free.fr/animated/malaxage1.swf (http://milked.free.fr/animated/malaxage1.swf)

[BigSpud]

Hi all check out the following link for hours of entertainment. This doesn't, of cause, include the loverly Liandra because she doesn't need a mouse to achieve the same effect.
http://milked.free.fr/animated/malaxage1.swf (http://milked.free.fr/animated/malaxage1.swf)Cool!

This (http://www.milkyparadise.com/Priscilla/) is one of my favorite types of photography. I made an adapter for my camera so I could do them in 2 shots.

Abby would you consider playing a bit with stereo? Imagine Liandra in stereo!!!! Her smile with a depth never before seen on AW. Her beautiful breasts in 3D right there in front of you. :o

Sorry, got carried away Thanks for the pointer, MPE

[Philos]

No good to those of us afflicted with AMD :rolleyes:

[BigSpud]

...AMDGoogle gives 16,000,000 hits for AMD from Advanced Micro Devices to Age-related Macular Degeneration or ??

[artlover]

Good heavens, Liandra, I'm amazed to hear that students still protest. Teachers shutting down classes in sympathy. Just like my old radical days with the SDS... hang on! I was never a campus radical :D! Just a campus radical wannabe. :D I was too young :(.

I have learned another Aussie endearment-- sprog!

[Philos]

Google gives 16,000,000 hits for AMD from Advanced Micro Devices to Age-related Macular Degeneration or ??
You got it at the second attempt.
Me---> ;)

[Philos]

I have learned another Aussie endearment-- sprog!
Sprog (in English) means a rookie in the armed forces. It's use to mean an offspring may be ironically derived from this.

[Peter552]

Hi Liandra,
Thanks for posting that picture. I have looked at your picture set on AW, and I think you are a very beautiful girl, but unfortunately I have a big problem with studs or rings on the face, so it's nice to see you bare-faced as well as bare-naked. And that little wisp of under-arm hair is so cute it sends shivers down my spine!
BTW any idea when we can expect a redux?

[liandra]

Sprog (in English) means a rookie in the armed forces. It's use to mean an offspring may be ironically derived from this.Philos, you're right on the money again, both my parents were in the (British) armed forces and that's what they called us (me and my siblings) and I'm just handing it down.

Sorry, it's not an aussie endearment but an English one.

[liandra]

Hi Liandra,
Thanks for posting that picture. I have looked at your picture set on AW, and I think you are a very beautiful girl, but unfortunately I have a big problem with studs or rings on the face, so it's nice to see you bare-faced as well as bare-naked. And that little wisp of under-arm hair is so cute it sends shivers down my spine!
BTW any idea when we can expect a redux?
You'll be glad to know that my face seems to agree with you. I've had nose rings and lip rings in two different places and everytime I have a horrific reaction. I shall never be pierced again.

[Peter552]

You'll be glad to know that my face seems to agree with you. I've had nose rings and lip rings in two different places and everytime I have a horrific reaction.

I shouldn't be pleased at someone else's misfortune, but I am delighted at the prospect of future pictures of you in all your 'unfettered' glory! :D

[mrpinkeyes]

Inspired by/ripped off The Cure - How Beautiful You Are



And in the thread before us

Stood a lucky lucky man

Who held Artlover upon his back

And BigSpud by the hand

The three of them were dressed in gold

And smiling from ear to ear

And all six eyes stared fixedly on Liandra



Vid Dudes eyes said "Beautiful! How beautiful you are!"

Artlovers eyes said "How beautiful! She shimmers like a star!"

Bigspuds eyes uttered nothing but a mute and utter joy

My mind ablaze with impure thoughts

And my heart filled with shame

Cause I'm a god fearing catholic boy



Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

[liandra]

Inspired by/ripped off The Cure - How Beautiful You Are



And in the thread before us

Stood a lucky lucky man

Who held Artlover upon his back

And BigSpud by the hand

The three of them were dressed in gold

And smiling from ear to ear

And all six eyes stared fixedly on Liandra



Vid Dudes eyes said "Beautiful! How beautiful you are!"

Artlovers eyes said "How beautiful! She shimmers like a star!"

Bigspuds eyes uttered nothing but a mute and utter joy

My mind ablaze with impure thoughts

And my heart filled with shame

Cause I'm a god fearing catholic boy



Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

Aw Shucks! You ripped off a song for me! It just happened to be one I am particulary fond of, nice choice. It's a shame they can't send little sound recordings over this forum, I would have liked to hear you sing it too.

[mrpinkeyes]

Aw Shucks! You ripped off a song for me! It just happened to be one I am particulary fond of, nice choice. It's a shame they can't send little sound recordings over this forum, I would have liked to hear you sing it too.

Beauty, Brains and great taste in music, but enough about me this is your thread. I think the reason they don't allow sound recordings over this forum is so nobody has to suffer hearing me sing.
Knowing the song, you will understand why I only selected a small sample of the song to rip off. Don't think the next part really fits do you?
I turned to look at you
To read my thoughts upon your face
And gazed so deep into your eyes
So beautiful and strange
Until you spoke
And showed me understanding is a dream
"I hate these people staring
Make them go away from me!"
I'm very impressed to be talking with someone that is particularly fond of a 1987 Robert Smith song.
i've been looking so long at these pictures of
you that i almost belive that they're real i've
been living so long with my pictures of you that
i almost believe that the pictures are all i can
feel
No more ripping off "Fat Bob" direct quote this time. The Cure just have lyrics for any occasion.
MrPinkEyes

[artlover]

well bless my soul, I have been poeticized... thank you, MrPinkEyes. :D I never knew my eyes were so eloquent.

Okay, another song about looking... from a great one-hit wonder of the 80s, A Flock of Seagulls...

It's not the make-up
And it's not the way that you dance,
It's not the evening sky.
It's more the way your eyes
are laughing as they glance
Across the great divide.

If I had a photograph of you,
It's something to remind me.
I wouldn't spend my life just wishing.

Don't worry, L, I am not wishing my life away, just imagining... and I/we have lots of photographs of you (tho we always want more... <3 )

[takochan]

you should check out #0309, she's on www.ishotmyself.com (http://www.ishotmyself.com) as Zille and she's luurvely. She won the ISM art prize over there last month. She's also got her own free website www.zilledefeu.com (http://www.zilledefeu.com)

Zille/0309 has been the beautiful agony free sample for the past few days (she still was when I checked a few minutes ago), and I completely agree with Liandra about her being worth checking out. Her orgasm is is amazing -- really takes the eyes and ears by storm. And she's very beautiful and sexy if her face is anything to go by.

Didn't know she had a website as well -- the name of it seems suitable (something like "fiery Zille"?) I will definitely check that out too.


takochan

[mrpinkeyes]

Flock of Seagulls one hit wonders?? What about




I Ran (1982)
(It’s not me) talking (1983)
The story of a young heart (1984)
The more you live, the more you love (1984)
As well as of cause your selected “Wishing (If I had a photograph of you)” Or were they just hits down under? I also read on the web that they are back together. Just with a lot less hair. I almost hate to admit to owning four Flock of Seagull albums one on cassette, one an Compact Disc and two one vinyl and of cause (It’s not me) talking 12’ extended mix vinyl. But don’t tell anyone.

[artlover]

The only songs I heard on commercial radio were Wishing and I Ran. So they weren't one-hit wonders. My apologies. I wouldn't know if they were hits down under.

[liandra]

Beauty, Brains and great taste in music, but enough about me this is your thread. I think the reason they don't allow sound recordings over this forum is so nobody has to suffer hearing me sing.
Knowing the song, you will understand why I only selected a small sample of the song to rip off. Don't think the next part really fits do you?
I turned to look at you
To read my thoughts upon your face
And gazed so deep into your eyes
So beautiful and strange
Until you spoke
And showed me understanding is a dream
"I hate these people staring
Make them go away from me!"
I'm very impressed to be talking with someone that is particularly fond of a 1987 Robert Smith song.
i've been looking so long at these pictures of
you that i almost belive that they're real i've
been living so long with my pictures of you that
i almost believe that the pictures are all i can
feel
No more ripping off "Fat Bob" direct quote this time. The Cure just have lyrics for any occasion.
MrPinkEyesI'm not sure if I have great taste in music, I am quite eclectic but I have enjoyed my fair share of cheesey chart shit; much to the distaste of my friends with a more refined view to music. I am also never fanatical about anything, it's probably laziness but I rarely bother to find out about whos who, where they come from, what their influences are, or who produces who or anything like that, in fact I rarely even read the covers that come with the cd's. I just hear what I like, ask what it is, and go buy it. I've been lucky enough to have my tastes shaped by people who take a much deeper interest. I'm the same with movies, I watch but I other than that, as in behind the scenes stuff, my interest is minimal. I've often thought I should work on this, but I never do.

[liandra]

Zille/0309 has been the beautiful agony free sample for the past few days (she still was when I checked a few minutes ago), and I completely agree with Liandra about her being worth checking out. Her orgasm is is amazing -- really takes the eyes and ears by storm. And she's very beautiful and sexy if her face is anything to go by.

Didn't know she had a website as well -- the name of it seems suitable (something like "fiery Zille"?) I will definitely check that out too.


takochan
Unbelievably, it's free too!

[liandra]

I thought I'd steal Roasnna's idea and post some of my other ISM.com stuff over here.

[liandra]

Maybe a few more, as I've done four folios on www.Ishotmyself.com (http://www.Ishotmyself.com) and the half cropped muff one pending, as you all know.

[liandra]

I think that will do, otherwise I'll get in trouble, I think that's not too many considering they've got the best part of 400 images of me over there. Anyway, I'm going to go and do my homework now.

[mrpinkeyes]

Hello Liandra
Thank you very much for adding some additional material for us all to study over and over again.
Wonderful... absolutely wonderful...
The TV shots are excellent... I gave you a standing ovation when I first saw them on ISM, the brilliance, the imagination, Abby should hire you as a creative director.
The only problem with seeing these amazing samples (especially http://forums.abbywinters.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=1263&stc=1) of your body of work on ISM is it has made me wish I were more than just a standard member.
MrPinkEyes
Question of the day:
"If practice makes prefect and nobody's perfect then why practice?"

[Luxman]

Great pictures. The TV shots were a fantastic idea. Congrats!

Lxm

[artlover]

While you do your homework, I'm at home getting worked up. :D

Great concept and great pics. Thank you!! Always good to see those dark bumpy feminist nipples! :D

[Peter552]

Terrific pics, Liandra. Thanks for sharing them with us. Not many people can be great artists and great models at the same time. Some day you'll have an exhibition of your work in the Tate :)

[Peter552]

Hey, don't forget that on the boards such luminaries as Evangeline (http://forums.abbywinters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=40581#post40581) are game for a chat about many different subjects, both deep and shallow. They're a fun couple of models who love to partake

I take it you're the other 'luminary such as Evangeline (http://forums.abbywinters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=40581#post40581)' ;)

[liandra]

I take it you're the other 'luminary such as Evangeline (http://forums.abbywinters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=40581#post40581)' ;)Um, I'm not sure, could well be Rosanna. Anyway, I am glad you like my pics, I'm particularly fond of a lot of the work I have done ISM. There's something about it just being you and the camera, and your imagined audience that makes it feel more intimate and yet far more relaxed.

Anyway, I have a question to pose to you all, just a theoretical one, for my entertainment.

You and a fellow AW member, who you have known for sometime through the forum and always found to be gentlemanly and respectful to the women on the site, decide to meet up for a coffee and in private he starts refering to the AW girls as sluts and tarts. You question this new developement and he elaborates by saying he thinks girls must be, to be on this site. That they are all probably amoral little prick teases, or even worse attention seeking whores; he enjoys looking, and he'd fuck them if given the chance but he'd be repulsed at the idea of a relationship, and he feels contempt for any man that would. Would you....

A) Stand up and hit him over the head with your chair
B) Throw scalding hot coffee in his crotch and tell him his views repulse you
C) Nod ambigously change the subject and never communicate with him again
D) laugh and agree whole heartedly
E) None of the above (please specify)

[arsby]

Explain to the lad that his preconceived notions about what AW models are like are overly prudish, and probably the result of a harsh repressive upbringing which reflects negatively on his parents. Then hit him over the head with a chair.

Arsby

[liandra]

Explain to the lad that his preconceived notions about what AW models are like are overly prudish, and probably the result of a harsh repressive upbringing which reflects negatively on his parents. Then hit him over the head with a chair.

Arsby
Psychological analysis that could inspire re-education/ rehabilitation, reinforced by corporeal punishment. Very good.

[artlover]

E) This seems an unlikely scenario. The regulars on the boards are gentlemanly and respectful and I would be very much surprised if any of them turned out to be any different in person.

Of course, this is not what you asked. I am not a violent person, so the chair and coffee options would be ruled out. (It would also be a waste of a good chair and good coffee. :D ) I would tell this lout that such comments reveal everything about the commenter and nothing about the commentees. I would add that all of my exchanges on the boards with you and the other models and the staff have been pleasant and interesting. While the models/staff may not share the same moral values or beliefs as the critics of porn sites, they--you--all seem to possess a sense of morality and decency. I would remind him of Richard Dreyfuss' classic line in The Goodbye Girl, when Marsha Mason discovers him nude in his room playing the guitar. She had just knocked on the door and asked if he was "decent". He says yes, and she walks in and sees him in the buff (with guitar strategically placed). She gasps, averts her eyes. He says, "I am very decent. I also happen to be naked". :D

As to nude models being prick-teases, with an attitude like that, this guy is not likely to find out, is he? As to them seeking attention... well, we all want attention, don't we? If our attention-seeking becomes obsessive or leads us to do things that are not in our best interest, then it's a problem. And while I think female beauty is commodified and women judged far too much on their looks, if working with Abby makes a girl more aware of her own beauty, I am all for it.

As for guys who want to get laid but hate the idea of a relationship... that's how they are with every woman, whether they are nude models or not.

When I fantasize about the girls I see on the site, I pretend they want me. When I am not fantasizing, I realize that that the models probably have many reasons to pose nude and do naughty things. If I were lucky enough to encounter an Abby model on the street (not likely given the cost of airfare to Australia) I would certainly take a good look at her (after thanking God for my unbelievable good fortune :D ) but I would also realize that, as in any other meeting, she may or may not be interested in me sexually, and I may or may not be interested in her sexually. I would probably invite her to have a coffee or two and tell me about life in Oz. Anything beyond that would depend on chemistry, which is either there or not, regardless of how many times I have seen her naked. My subscription to AW entitles me to look at the girls' images--nothing else.

So I would give him a good telling off--and avoid communication.

your imagined audience
These are the key words in your message. (BTW, it's nice to have a good intellectual question from you again, L. I have missed them). I have no idea who the imagined audience is for any of the models--for all I know, their imagined audience is female! (I don't dwell on that a lot).

So there's my answer.

What do you do when people make judgmental comments about your posing? Is there a trail of broken chairs and coffee stained rugs across the nightspots of Melbourne? :D

BTW, I once accidentally dropped an entire cup of fresh-brewed hot tea in my lap. I survived--sitting a long time in a bathtub of cold water helped--but next time, I think I'll take the chair.

[artlover]

I see my man Arsby has given a pithy, funny reply and I have gone on at great length. Sometimes less is more.:(

[Luxman]

I only have met one of the AW members in real life. We do that regularly because we are very good friends today.
He is a very nice guy and as respectful to the girls as I am.
We both love being here and have a very high opinion of the nice young Aussie ladies.
Everyone can be glad that the girls are so comfortable with their body to show it to us.

Just for fun I have attached a picture of us (looking spunky, bwahahaha!) from our last meeting in June.
I admit, the original idea is from Abby. :)

Lxm

PS.: To answer your question: I think I would simply throw the guy out of my house.

[artlover]

You guys gotta find a larger place to meet next time. :D

'sa spunky pic tho--gotta love the shoes... <3

[arsby]

Ah ah ah, Artlover.

It is an unwritten rule here at the AW boards that your post has to be shorter than your prick.

Roops and I have had many a lengthy correspondence about this in the past, and I'm sure he would agree.

Though why either his or my opinion should matter to anyone is beyond me.

And nowwwww......

Back to Liandra!

[artlover]

Ah ah arsby... since I have never revealed the dimensions of my pride and joy in any of my 1.5 kiloposts, how can you say whether it or my post is longer? :D:D:eek::D