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Thread: Hiding tattoos/bruises (show the whole model)

  1. #1
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    Hiding tattoos/bruises (show the whole model)

    I'm sick of AW ruining so many shoots because of their decision to hide the models' tattoos (or bruises).

    In almost every recent shoots the girls don't get fully naked and aren't shoot from every angles. It's been going on for weeks and nothing seems to change.

    A girl isn't just an ass and breasts. Her whole body is sexy and deserves to be seen (belly, back, arms, legs...).

    The following actions make the shoots unnatural and strange:
    - The models keep a piece of clothing
    - The models keeps putting back a piece of clothing
    - The camera avoids a specific angle
    - The model stays in a specific position to hide a tattoo
    - The model gets fully naked only for a few photos or a few seconds

    Hiding parts of a model's body feels wrong: It gives the message to the viewers that the model's body isn't beautiful and should stay hidden ; That AW is ashamed of shooting her! It goes against the philosophy of showing normal girls as they are.

    Could AW tell us what they think and if they plan to change their rules?

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    You may want to change the topic title, as it seems you want to discuss more then just tattoo's. Good thing too, as that was already done in this thread, same title and also started by you.

    You may be interested in Masie's recent post here: http://forums.abbywinters.com/vbulle...624#post418624

    I personally don't mind not seeing a tattoo, but I understand it can be strange if you view shoot as *avoiding* something. Luckily I rarely notice it, so doesn't bother me as much.
    AW does shoot girls as natural as possible, however the intention also is to make her look as good as possible (within constraints as; no make-up and such).

    .. where 'good' is 100% subjective of course..

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    I couldn't find the old thread.
    You can merge the topics or change the title (I can't edit the title).

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    Quote Originally Posted by redlabka View Post
    I couldn't find the old thread.
    You can merge the topics or change the title (I can't edit the title).
    I'll change the title, to show thread is not *only* about tattoo's.

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    I've never seen a model presented on any porn site is 100% "honest." If the depiction were completely true to life, there'd be fewer smiles, an open discussion of money, no "posing" and fewer thrills for the viewer. The POV that AW takes is fine with me. And I'm not a big fan of the ink, so disguising tats with clothing or using particular angles is fine by me.
    Last edited by AarontheMoor; 12th August 2014 at 06:57 AM.

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    I'm still holding out hope that we will see Thais minus her long socks...

    The closest we have got so far (Think this is a good example of what redlabka is saying)
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    Last edited by mrpinkeyes; 12th August 2014 at 10:14 AM.

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    Yes, Thais is one of the girl who had to hide her tattoo.
    Her shoot with Blanca was very strange: Thais kept her socks, Blanca kept her skirt and they were careful to hide the tattoos in most situation (http://www.abbywinters.com/girl_girl...anca_thais_194).
    They often seemed more preoccupied by hiding their tattoos than by having sex.

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    I think what several people are trying to say is that they don't much like tattoos on a model's beautiful body, but what's worse is a shoot where the model has tattoos but has to try to hide them. That would certainly be my point of view.
    Last edited by JacksonP49; 12th August 2014 at 12:50 PM.

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    part right Jackson...
    I don't have any problem seeing tattoos on a beautiful AW models body, it's the unnatural feel that occurs in a shoot when it's being hidden or covered up as redlabka has pointed out.

    I had thought it had gotten better and Claudia S later shoots were a sign of improvement. But it does seem that the rules changes from model to model or shoot to shoot.

    I understand some models may not want certain tattoo's shown, family members names etc, but wouldn't a cover-up (make-up) type thing be better/look ,ore natural in these cases?

    Just my opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpinkeyes View Post
    I'm still holding out hope that we will see Thais minus her long socks...

    The closest we have got so far (Think this is a good example of what redlabka is saying)
    Are those pictures both of Thais?

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    Out of 6 shoots I've done with Abby Winters 4 have my tattoos covered.
    Who knows maybe I can work with them after my implants they can just cover my tits up as well as my tattoos HAHA <joke>
    Last edited by pippa; 12th August 2014 at 04:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pippa View Post
    Out of 6 shoots I've done with Abby Winters 4 have my tattoos covered.
    Is it in your latest shoot that you were able to show your full body?
    I think that AW stopped to hide tattoos for a while but decided to hide them again recently.

    Quote Originally Posted by pippa View Post
    Who knows maybe I can work with them after my implants they can just cover my tits up as well as my tattoos HAHA <joke>
    I'm not even sure that it would feel stranger than what we see recently.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by redlabka View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pippa View Post
    Out of 6 shoots I've done with Abby Winters 4 have my tattoos covered.
    Is it in your latest shoot that you were able to show your full body?
    I think that AW stopped to hide tattoos for a while but decided to hide them again recently.

    Quote Originally Posted by pippa View Post
    Who knows maybe I can work with them after my implants they can just cover my tits up as well as my tattoos HAHA <joke>
    I'm not even sure that it would feel stranger than what we see recently.
    The first one I was completely naked (the one with me running on the road) the 2nd was covered with the cardigan/shirt.
    The double intimate moments and T3 girl shoot were covered the last shoot I did a double intimate moment was naked.

  14. #14
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    At its core abbywinters has always been a natural website, seeing beauty in the female body and striving to show it in its original form, untouched by ink or make up but always celebrating the individual lines and marks that make each woman different and special. Over the years we always push ourselves to be better, better photographers, better web designers and better able to interpret our passion for being a natural website and this accounts for the changes in our tattoo policies over the years.

    As individuals we don't think tattoos are a bad thing but as a website we are committed to serving the niche that we carved for ourselves, the niche that has allowed us to work in this wonderful industry for over 13 years. Our promise has always been all natural, natural bodies, natural attitudes, real natural sex and we want to continue to keep this all natural promise to our members.

    On paper the easiest solution to keep everyone happy would be for us to always reject interested woman who happen to have tattoos but when you find yourself talking to someone as passionate and likeable as Pippa I am sure you can understand why we sometimes decide to make exceptions and try and work around a models tattoos. I know that in those instances it can be frustrating to not get to see the whole but we hope that getting to know and share in the passions and energies of the individual’s outweighs the frustration of not always getting to see everything.

    It is possible we may need to look at the frequency of the exceptions we have been making and reduce them and I can assure you that the management team that guide and form abbywinters are always looking at ways to make this one of the greatest erotic sites in the world both for models and members. While it may not always seem logical to you every decision we make, made day to day, month to month, is always made with the success of the website, the satisfaction of our members and the happiness and ethical treatment of our models in mind.

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    AW had no problem shooting girls with tattoos (and piercings) when they were in Australia. The website already was about natural girls and was very successful. It seems that the fear of tattoos is a recent trend at AW.

    For me, the lack of spontaneity induced by hiding some parts of the models is a lot worse than seeing some tattoos. Some girl-girl shoots are very frustrating to watch when the girls don't get naked. It's a shame because these models are beautiful.

    I still hope that you will change your point of view. I would like AW to be a website which shows natural girls AND shoots them naturally.

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    I think it is stupid when tattoos in this way be concealed.
    Show the whole Model! Tattoos, Piercings, Bruises, Scars belong to the personality of the Model.

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    I understand the leaders of AW, who reflect on the problem of girls with tattoos. But here anxiety about losing here usual succes by presenting the tattoos on the body of the girls is wrong. Most of the AW-clients demand to look at natural and unaffected girls, and to see her bodys everywhere, without or with tattoos.

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    Omg these two girls are so amazing!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by garionhall View Post
    To date, we've never done that. When I asked the question at the top of this thread, I did not mention tattoos - I think that's a good example of the "slippery slope" argument Masie raised. We start with pimples, and it organically creeps to other perceived "flaws" - it's dangerous.

    I think I recall models asking us to remove tattoos before occasionally, because they had some special meaning (maybe, I really forget the details), but we ended up shooting around it (covering with clothing, most likely), and showing her the final set before release to get her approval.

    But, this is a discussion thread, so your (and others!) opinion on this is welcome!
    That's an interesting reply for several reasons. First of all, because although you give the impression that the answer is no, you don't actually say that. I therefore read your answer as yes, you would consider removing tattoos with Photoshop.

    The second reason your answer is interesting is that it gives the impression that you have only ever "shot around" tattoos because the model has asked you to, and that is simply not the case. You have "shot around" tattoos because of the policy articulated very clearly in the policy document quoted by Pinky in the other thread that you are very well aware of, which is that tattoos are "unacceptable" and must be shot around every time. It is for that reason that we see solo shoots in which the model constantly puts on and takes off and puts on again various items of clothing, covering tattoos whenever she is an a pose that would reveal them if she were naked.

    Neither of those things surprises me, because in that other thread, in which virtually every member who expressed an opinion said that if the model had tattoos then they would rather see the model naked with her tattoos than see her not naked and with the tattoos covered, you steadfastly refused to say that you accepted that view, and capped it all at the end by pretending that you had made yourself clear when in fact you knew perfectly well that you had not. And the shoots have continued to appear with the models and shooters going to ridiculous lengths to ensure that the members are spared the horrible sight of a tattoo. Which was not the case when the site was still in Australia, which is where it made its reputation, and if a model had tattoos then they were shown and often commented on in the videos of solo shoots.

    In this thread, you have given your poll top billing on the home page, and the members have responded by giving you the clearest possible answer: they don't want any Photoshop. Not ever in any circumstances. By a margin of over 4 to 1, and from quite a large number of respondents as these things go.

    Forgive me for being cynical, but I rather suspect that we will in fact find Photoshop being used, and that the first purpose for which it will be used will be the hiding of tattoos. You wouldn't have asked the question unless you wanted to use it, and the fact that the members have responded by giving you the answer you didn't want, in the clearest possible terms, won't stop you.

    The sad thing is that it will be done for the purpose of ensuring that the site remains "natural", but in fact it's been becoming less and less natural as each day goes by.

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    AW had no problem shooting girls with tattoos (and piercings) when they were in Australia. The website already was about natural girls and was very successful. It seems that the fear of tattoos is a recent trend at AW.
    As a relatively new member I'm not sure why this subject is under discussion. I've watched many shoots with models sporting tattoos and while some cannot be ignored, such as with Zora, the fact that they do have tattoos does not register especially with me. Has the policy on tattoos changed? If so, were there complaints in the past that made that change necessary? On the other hand has this search for the "natural woman" been taken to another level?

    It seems to me that the problem keeps coming back to this word "natural". Are tattoos natural? Well, no, BUT where they would once have been considered unacceptable on "decent women" they are today so widespread that they are now firmly an acceptable part of society. Some are incredibly beautiful, such as this:

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    Now, would AW accept this young woman as a model or would the tattoo be deemed as unnatural or seen as an enhancement in the same way as lipstick? Would she be accepted if the tattoo was smaller? So where is the line drawn? Ultimately it is up to AW to determine what is aesthetically acceptable and what is not and that is not an easy decision to make. There does however seem to be a lot of confusion about whether or not AW covers over tattoos so perhaps it could be made clear in this way: That if the model is accepted to work with AW then tattoos will be displayed as they are part of her and thus who she naturally is.
    Last edited by boomertoo; 20th December 2014 at 06:22 AM.

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    Boomer, if you read the whole thread, you'll see that other members agree with you. This thread http://forums.abbywinters.com/vbulle...ad.php?t=14629 is on the same topic. You mention Zora: her shoots were shot in Australia, before AW moved to Amsterdam. In Australia, if a model had tattoos, you saw the tattoos.

    Since the move to Amsterdam the policy has changed and tattoos are now unacceptable. There's actually a website where AW sets all the requirements for an Abby Winters shoot. http://learn.abbywinters.com/grooming/. That link is only part of it. It is said quite clearly that if a model has tattoos, then the shooter has to "shoot around" them, which means hide them. They are "unacceptable".

    That's why, if you look at an Abby Winters solo shoot, you'll often see that the model leaves her socks on for the whole shoot, or keeps putting items of clothing back on after she's taken them off, or never actually takes off all her clothes. It's to hide her tattoos.

    For some reason, Garion Hall, who owns and runs the site, thinks this is "natural". As you point out, it's not natural at all. It's unnatural and artificial.

    Many people, like you, would think that a website like Abby Winters, which is supposed to be dedicated to showing ordinary girls as they really are, would show a girl's tattoos if she has them. After all, a huge proportion of normal, everyday girls now have tattoos. But that is not the Abby Winters way. The opposite is true.

    So far as models with tattoos are concerned, the rule at Abby Winters is to show them as they are NOT.
    Last edited by JacksonP49; 21st December 2014 at 03:26 AM.

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    Jackson, thanks, I should have read that thread too. Having done so I'm surprised that this peculiar policy is still in effect, especially after seeing that so many members are upset by it. As I said, personally I'm not bothered at all by tattoos and if the model has one or two then that is a part of who she truly is. In the end if this is Garion's own idea of "natural" then, as the person who has set up the site, he has the right to see this policy used. I guess if this his true belief then I would assume that things might only possibly change if there is a major impact on membership. However, what intrigues me most is why this policy changed after the move to Amsterdam? I would find it hard to believe that this is a European influence.

    What bothers me more is this continued reference to the word "wholesome". Perhaps it has become muddled up with "natural" (or the other way round) though goodness knows what "natural" actually implies. "Wholesome" is a description from past ages and to me it conjures up the image of the farmer's young wife, fresh faced and proudly sporting a clean apron as she waits by the front door for her man to come in from the fields for supper. It certainly does not refer to todays modern young woman with her hopes and dreams and her zest for life, tattoos included.

    There is also nothing "wholesome" about two women fucking each other (please, excuse the crudity but one has to be honest here). There is often incredible beauty in the scene (not that I will go further into that here) but "wholesome"? NO. I refer again to the answer Violet gave post-shoot with Sue-Ann:
    Ladies, did you have fun?
    Mmm, Can't call us ladies after that!

    Regarding tattoos: in the end either members do not accept the policy and move on or accept it and stay, because I don't see any change coming.
    Last edited by boomertoo; 21st December 2014 at 04:52 AM.

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