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    #61
    Originally posted by Greenest View Post
    The idea that the basic, shared, universal human realities of having a body make someone "imperfect" and unattractive and that people ought to be different from how they are naturally to be thought acceptable is a concept central to the commodification and objectification of bodies generally and women's bodies specifically. The objectifying descriptive copy and tags used for Abby Winters shoots have long disheartened me, but I've kept with the site because the shoots themselves seem to be conducted with integrity and respect for the people who model. If that, too, changes—that is, if the site caves to the idea that women's bodies ought to be brought into line with a single unrealistic standard of appearance before they can be called attractive or acceptable—then I couldn't spend money here in good conscience anymore.
    Couldn't agree more Greenest, however, don't you think hiding an ''imperfection'' with Photoshop is kinda similar to hiding it by not shooting at all? Let's be honest, AW already gives in to a narrow beauty standard. Which is okay, because otherwise they wouldn't be such a successful company. I'm glad anyway that people prefer AW models over plastic Barbiedoll pornstars. But let's not pretend AW models are an accurate representation of the female body, because they're not. They come closer though than all the other websites.

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      #62
      Originally posted by garionhall View Post
      A customer just emailed us to say:
      We asked him to post on the boards and vote, but in case he chooses not to...
      For your info, people do need to be logged in to the forums in order to vote. If only logged in to main site they will see the poll *results* without being able to vote.

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        #63
        Good grief, don't do it, Garion!!!

        Not using Photoshop is your main selling point! It's why I am a member of this site and not any others.

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          #64
          Originally posted by rayhoffman View Post
          Good grief, don't do it, Garion!!! Not using Photoshop is your main selling point! It's why I am a member of this site and not any others.
          Ray, based on the feedback so far, I'm convinced it's not the right thing to do, and we'll remain photoshop-touch-up free. But, the discussion is fascinating.

          We started discussing it internally, and while I am personally very against it, I suddenly thought, "What if it's something customers would actually prefer?!" - it's easy enough to make a poll and have a discussion thread, and I think it's allowed staff, models and customers to bring up some good points.

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            #65
            Originally posted by Yara View Post
            Let's be honest, AW already gives in to a narrow beauty standard. [snip] But let's not pretend AW models are an accurate representation of the female body, because they're not. They come closer though than all the other websites.
            Agree, we are very selective, shooting around 30% of the applicants who apply.

            But we have extremely "low" standards compared to our peers. Never to my face, but I have heard that plenty of industry leaders are not very respectful of our site because of the models we show (ie, they don't meet their definition of attractive). "Garion's farmyard" was prolly the rudest, but the fact is, we've been around 15-odd years, we'll be around for many more, and both customers and models are very happy with us, so, to be frank, fuck them.

            While I do not have stats, I have often imagined that we show the "top" 1% of young women, whereas sites like met-art.com show the top 0.01%. So, we're 100x more liberal with our model selection than others (that is to say, you'd find one in one hundred of our models accepted to work at that site)... but 1000x less liberal than having the site open to "all-comers".

            So Yara's right (as she so often is!).

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              #66
              Garion's farmyard, thats outrageous.
              And yeah, I think AW might even represent more than 1% of young women, and indeed it is way better than basically any other pornsite. Though it's important to be critical about these topics and not be pretentious about it (not that I am mother theresa, but hey). I think the photoshopping discussion is pretty interesting also, some people come with nice arguments on both stands. So then it's not gonna happen ey?

              Hope my butt pimple will be gone the end of this month since Im shooting then, haha.

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                #67
                The problem with your original question is that "Photoshop" is a lightning rod term that conjures up images of Barbi-like über-women pasted on the cover page of Cosmopolitan Magazine. If you had asked "Should we occasionally fix blemishes in AW shoots" you might have gotten a less impassioned response.

                Arguably, starting this thread was a bad idea. You're just asking for the slippery slope fanatics who think you're going to make the pictures all shiny and porn-perfect, whereas you're really just trying to take out some gross stuff that no one really wants to see. Was the AW photography style guide developed on a consensus basis? Having read many parts of it, I'd say it wasn't.

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                  #68
                  What makes AW different, and makes it stand out from the oridnary others.

                  Originally posted by renae_d View Post
                  As my late husband used to say "Baby, that's just what you look like."
                  It's about being real. Real people. Not tarted up models, but real people we can all relate to.

                  So, no photoshop, pleeeeeze.

                  And the models shouldn't be concerned about the odd blemish, spot, rash, tan lines, bra marks or whatever. Just know that you are all beautiful, and appreciated.

                  Renae, your husband was absolutely spot on right. And, Nichole on the rooftop was your best shoot. A personal favourite. You girls just clicked, made it so believable, a fantasy fulfilled. And one that should be revisited. In all the years I have followed AW, I have never understood why revisiting its best shoots has been avoided by AW. I could offer a fair list that I would make a priority.

                  As for make up, the after dark series is the platform for models to be shown at their made up best. Although I would lighten the darkness, and shoot in a wider variety of situations.

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                    #69
                    My initial thought was the "slippery slope" thing that several have alluded to, but on further reflection, I'm inclined to think that the occasional pimple disappearing is not that much of a loss to honesty. Particularly with models travelling from halfway across Europe, some with not a lot of money, if it means that they get paid – then it's a good thing.

                    <addition>
                    I've just had a look at another site that I subscribe to, and I've noticed that most of the time their models are also makeup-free -- I'm not as sure about PhotoShop free. Though, my guess is that the use of Photoshop is more on the limited level that is/was proposed than wholesale re-shaping of bodies. But again, it is the naturalness of the images that makes them special. And I'd say that they also have a broader range of models than many of the "pure porn" sites that are about.
                    </addition>
                    Last edited by AnAussieImport; 19 December 2014, 01:57 AM.

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                      #70

                      I like the idea of AW retaining a policy of not doctoring photos, because viewers then know that what they see is minimally different from reality.

                      It's not a question of absolute verisimilitude -- lighting, photo selection, digital colour/brightness/contrast adjustment, etc can radically alter the overall impression -- but it'd be nice to keep maximum possible authenticity.

                      If a photo is great except for one element, perhaps either crop it or use another. If a model has a temporary blemish, then existing policy of deciding case-by-case whether to reschedule seems better (even though there's likely associated cost).

                      Oh, and I'm referring to the model only -- removing an aesthetically-discordant visual from the background (eg a mark on a wall unnoticed when taking the photo) should benefit the photo uncontroversially.

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                        #71
                        My two cents: I voted "no", but maybe there should have been an option to "let the models decide". If they're OK with a butt pimple or whatever, go with it.

                        But I also agree with the "slippery slope" argument. Where do you stop? I've been thinking about some of my favorites here. Ren and Kylie playing the sexiest game of Pathfinder ever. Lucie and Noa having their tea. Lotte's headgear. Mirai's tattoo and big glasses. How many of those would make it to another site? How many would make it here if AW went down that slippery slope?

                        That's why I like AW. It's not just because the women are natural and the shoots are hot. It's because the models are allowed to be themselves, to not be cookie-cutter pneumatic Kardashian clones. It's because they remind me that women are beautiful and sexy...and so, so wonderfully much more.

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                          #72
                          I would be alright with Photoshop being used sparingly and only when absolutely necessary (like WD-40), and I trust the AW staff would make good choices based on the past photo/video shoots. I've been a fan of the site for nearly 8 years because of the models and shoots, but I never really thought about much whether or not Photoshop was being used at all, I just like the photos and videos (which is probably due to the lack of PS). As long as strict guidelines are maintained in it's use, maybe a disclaimer that it may be used to fix a couple blemishes and not change the person's image entirely. I don't know that it's realistic or practical to maintain a strict prohibition on PS. It's nice that their being transparent about whether or not to use it, though.

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                            #73
                            Please don't use Photoshop. One of the key aspects of AW is showing natural girls. Where's the "natural" in photoshopped images (no matter what amount of Photoshop)?

                            Hell, there are some models I like just because they're not perfect! Photoshopping them would take all that away.

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                              #74
                              Originally posted by AarontheMoor View Post
                              The problem with your original question is that "Photoshop" is a lightning rod term that conjures up images of Barbi-like über-women pasted on the cover page of Cosmopolitan Magazine. If you had asked "Should we occasionally fix blemishes in AW shoots" you might have gotten a less impassioned response.
                              Damnit, you're dead right! :/ I should maybe run all my posts by you before making them.

                              Was the AW photography style guide developed on a consensus basis? Having read many parts of it, I'd say it wasn't.
                              Actually, lot of the content and style was, between 2000 and 2003, right on these boards. Well, maybe not consensus, but smart people posting meaningful topics, with frequent "hey, why don;t you...?", and we did, and people liked it, so we started doing it more often, and that became the AW paradigm.

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                                #75
                                You maybe could create a poll to know if members want to see the girls more naturally than actually.

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                                  #76
                                  Originally posted by Wild4fire View Post
                                  Please don't use Photoshop. One of the key aspects of AW is showing natural girls. Where's the "natural" in photoshopped images (no matter what amount of Photoshop)?

                                  Hell, there are some models I like just because they're not perfect! Photoshopping them would take all that away.
                                  Exactly! That's my opinion to.

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                                    #77
                                    I still don't see the problem with using Photoshop to enhance some of the pictures here. I agree that the use of Photoshop should in no way change the way a model looks....it shouldn't be used to make her look thinner, heavier, remove moles or tattoos, etc., but to remove pimples or any other TEMPORARY imperfections that are not typically what the model has, then if the model would like to have them removed, then what's the big deal?

                                    Photoshop can also be used to make the photo more interesting, without enhancing the model. Here is an example of what I mean. The first photo is the original photo, while the second was modified in Photoshop. Does anyone have a problem with the second photo?

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                                      #78
                                      As previously requested, Is it possible to see some mock up before an after pictures to show how and what you were thinking of photoshopping?

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                                        #79
                                        Look at the poll results: 83 % of the voting customers say: Absolutely not. No photoshop ever !!!

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                                          #80
                                          Originally posted by mrpinkeyes View Post
                                          As previously requested, Is it possible to see some mock up before an after pictures to show how and what you were thinking of photoshopping?
                                          That would indirectly say that the pic shown isn't good enough without editing, not sure I'd want to see that.

                                          Originally posted by Dekoda View Post
                                          Photoshop can also be used to make the photo more interesting, without enhancing the model. Here is an example of what I mean. The first photo is the original photo, while the second was modified in Photoshop. Does anyone have a problem with the second photo?
                                          It's not a photo anymore? It's not bad to look at, but so are some paintings Photo's should capture the actual moment, in my opinion.

                                          Besides, for the 'imperfections' perceived as problems above photoshop isn't efficient. Those are far easier to work around using make-up, compared to having to edit all pics.

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                                            #81
                                            Originally posted by Dekoda View Post
                                            Does anyone have a problem with the second photo?
                                            Yes! Highlighting a model with controlled depth-of-field is much nicer than removing the background with a selection tool. An here, the selection edge is blurred while in the orignal image, she appears perfectly sharp.
                                            Last edited by vollunsinn; 20 December 2014, 11:45 AM. Reason: didn't want to quote picture

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                                              #82
                                              Originally posted by bluelagoon View Post
                                              Look at the poll results: 83 % of the voting customers say: Absolutely not. No photoshop ever !!!
                                              Yes, 143 customers out of thousands (maybe millions) don't want pictures to be Photoshopped. That's a real test market.

                                              It doesn't really matter though....it's okay to alter a model's appearance by using makeup, but god forbid anyone should use Photoshop....really? What the hell is the difference? Again, if each photo had to be altered with Photoshop, it would be a time consuming endeavor, so instead, just use makeup to alter the model's appearance. I guess everyone thinks that using makeup to alter a model's appearance is more natural than using Photoshop to alter a model's appearance. Yeah, right....give me a break! ANYTHING that is used to alter a model's appearance makes the model no longer look natural, so why make such a big deal out of using Photoshop? If the members are against using anything artificial to alter a model's appearance then I guess they should complain about any model who uses makeup, right? If not, then those members are hypocrites....makeup is okay but Photoshop is not? WTF?

                                              As Abby once told me, and I totally agree, the idea is to get the picture correct in the camera, that way, there will be no post processing needed. That is the ideal, but sometimes, that isn't always possible. For those times, post processing is necessary....that's where Photoshop comes in.

                                              To sum it up, NO MODEL should ever wear any makeup to hide any imperfections on AW because doing so would go against AW's policy of offering up real girls. Hiding imperfections with makeup doesn't show the REAL girl as she looks when she steps out of the shower, so in order to keep with AW's philosophy of offering up natural girls, any and all makeup should be removed from the models, otherwise, the models aren't REAL.

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                                                #83
                                                Originally posted by Dekoda View Post
                                                Does anyone have a problem with the second photo?
                                                Yes. I can admire the second photo, but I can't get off on it.

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                                                  #84
                                                  Dekoda ... none of us wear any makeup on the site ... it isn't allowed (besides After Dark which they haven't been making more of for years)

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                                                    #85
                                                    Originally posted by Dekoda View Post

                                                    To sum it up, NO MODEL should ever wear any makeup to hide any imperfections on AW because doing so would go against AW's policy of offering up real girls. Hiding imperfections with makeup doesn't show the REAL girl as she looks when she steps out of the shower, so in order to keep with AW's philosophy of offering up natural girls, any and all makeup should be removed from the models, otherwise, the models aren't REAL.
                                                    Dekoda, this is actually exactly what AW already does. AW does not use makeup to hide imperfections, the models look like they would if they just stepped out of the shower (literally in fact, we shower on-site right before our shoots) and no makeup is allowed to enhance OR cover up anything.

                                                    Once again, since you don't watch the shoots, I really don't know why you care so much and keep going on about this. It won't change anything for you, and literally not one single other person on the boards or in the votes has agreed with you.

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                                                      #86
                                                      Renae and Jada, the only reason that I have argued this point is because a number of members agreed that using some makeup would be okay, but that Photoshop wouldn't. There is no difference in the two....Photoshop is basically digital makeup, as long as it's not used to make natural blemishes, like moles, disappear from the model, or to make the model look thinner, heavier, etc. This is why I found it ridiculous that some members were okay with makeup, but not with Photoshop.

                                                      Jada, yes, I am the only one who said yes to Photoshop in the poll, but 16% of the members thought that some Photoshop use was okay, and to me, Photoshop is just digital makeup. I know that you don't allow the models to wear makeup, but when members said they were okay with some makeup, that's when I argued that using Photoshop was no different than using makeup. It's a moot point anyway since the models don't wear makeup, but I thought my side should be heard so that I could express my reasoning behind this.

                                                      Yes, I don't look at the model's photo shoots, so I couldn't care less if the models do or don't wear makeup, or their pictures are Photoshopped, since I'll never see them anyway, but from what I've seen being posted here by a lot of the members, I got the impression that they thought that if Photoshop was used, the pictures would be so altered that what they saw in the photos wouldn't be what the model actually looked like...like the overly altered model's pictures you see in Glamour magazines. This is what I was trying to explain to everyone....that AW wouldn't overly alter a model's pictures, they would, if need be, just do very minor alterations so that the model would still look like herself, and not look like someone she's not.

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                                                        #87
                                                        Thank you for clarifying Dekoda, I think that I (and several others) missed your point and misunderstood what you are trying to say. Now that it's clear, I agree with you that a simple blemish remover tool would be the same as covering it with makeup, but I also think that it would be much easier to just allow makeup and continue with the no-photoshop rule.
                                                        I originally voted for "sometimes", but I've now changed my mind since most small blemishes could be hidden other ways that would be much easier (and less controversial) instead of using photoshop.
                                                        Anyway Garrion has already announced that the no photoshop rule will stay, and I think most people are really happy about that.

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                                                          #88
                                                          Originally posted by Frans View Post
                                                          That would indirectly say that the pic shown isn't good enough without editing, not sure I'd want to see that.
                                                          My interpretation on what Garion was that photoshop was going to be used on images that aren't deemed good enough to be shown on the site currently. The talented camera crew were unable to film (photograph) around it, therefore it would never be shown on the site, but with a little photshop then it would be at a level deemed good enough and shown on the site.

                                                          I do kinda take your point, about that you may not want to see it, so maybe just the after shot. Wondering if I would even be able to tell if a photo had been photo shopped based on how Garion has sold it.

                                                          But I did previously vote for a little make up to be allowed in some AW shoots. If I'm reading some of the reason responses correctly then I would also much prefer a little make up to be applied than any use of photoshop.

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                                                            #89
                                                            Originally posted by Frans View Post
                                                            That would indirectly say that the pic shown isn't good enough without editing, not sure I'd want to see that.
                                                            Don't disregarde: Plenty of the customers take the view that the pics shown are good enough without editing and want to see that.

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                                                              #90
                                                              Can I hijack this post and say how nice it is to hear from so many people in one topic thread. I have foudn myself tuning into this post several times a day as I am enjoy the contribution and thoughts of so many and foinding it interesting to see how different points of view and ideas come together. This is how the boards should be, a big diverse social meetign groudn where we can not only relax and praise the wonderful abby ladies but we can also test our brains with intellectual or opinionated debate. More of this in 2015 would be amazing

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