Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The F word

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    The F word

    *Disclaimer* This post is based on opinion not fact.

    Now, I'm obviously not talking about fuck, because being on the forum means that we're all old enough to use the word freely when around the proper audience. No, I'm talking about a word that, in the past few years, has gotten a reputation for being a dirt word. Feminism.

    Usually I'd write about this on my thread, but I really wanted to make it a more general discussion. It's been something I've been thinking about lately and I thought it might be nice food for thought. So, that's why I'm throwing it out here...

    Feminism in it's literal meaning is
    :The belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities
    :Organized activity in support of women's rights and interests

    There is nothing wrong with that, right? So why is it a dirty word to me? The answer is pretty simple: The fact that certain women think it's necessary to make a whole lot of noise and make outrageous Misandrist statements and trying to pass it off as Feminism. Statements like: Don't shave your legs because it's the patriarchy that wants you to conform to a feminine ideal to please men!!!1!!!1

    It makes it hard for people, like me for instance, to call themselves feminists. I don't because I don't want to be associated with people like that, even if I believe that the sexes should be equal and there are still too many things that are unfair. Because real feminists would say something like: If you want to shave your legs, sure! It's your body and you can do with it what you want.

    So, what do you think? Is it a dirty word? And why it is or isn't to you.

    #2
    Such an interesting question, Mirai. Thank you for posting it.

    So, what do you think? Is it a dirty word?
    Not "dirty" perhaps but ill-used. Even nowadays it is still too often associated only with radical feminists and not those who quietly go about trying to effect change.

    I dare not start on how I believe women are treated throughout the world for that would take pages and pages of writing. All I can say here is that whether here in Australia where an ex-Prime Minister was subjected to disgraceful treatment because of her gender or whether in third world countries where "honour" killings and rapes are part and parcel of everyday life women have every right to seek change.

    Perhaps a more successful approach would be to replace "feminism" with "people-ism" in the attempt to help everyone understand that we are all human beings, all people together, some different in outward appearance but all with the same thoughts, ideas, hopes and dreams as everyone else around us. Simplistic? Maybe. Unattainable? Maybe not.

    We can only hope.

    Comment


      #3
      Any word or movement can sound bad if define it only by looking at the 'radical' parts. The problem is that such 'radicals' tend to make the most noise and get noticed a lot more, as such they can hijack the word/movement. So next time somebody hears the word 'feminist' they don't think of the common sense approach of 'men/women equal' but what they heard lately loudest. Which tends to lower support for said movement, ironically.

      Feminism itself isn't a dirty word, what is meant by it differs wildly between people. You don't have to be a feminist (whatever that means) in order to believe men and women to be equal. In some parts of the world I wouldn't exactly recommend being a feminist but over here in Europe it's mostly fine

      The leg shaving thing is an old thing, back in the 19-sixties I believe. Some women back then couldn't get it in their head that maybe some women WANT to shave their legs, in effect they forced them to adhere to another set of rules. The very thing they were opposed to

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by boomertoo View Post
        Perhaps a more successful approach would be to replace "feminism" with "people-ism" in the attempt to help everyone understand that we are all human beings, all people together, some different in outward appearance but all with the same thoughts, ideas, hopes and dreams as everyone else around us. Simplistic? Maybe. Unattainable? Maybe not.
        We can only hope.
        I really like that approach if people would actully start to believe in that the world might become a better place. The idea might not be as much simplistic as it is idealistic. I like it.

        Comment


          #5
          Frans, Of course you are very right about that. There is nothing wrong with the movement or the word but the people that scream the loudest make it impossible to get a good name. Personally, I don't mind not calling myself a feminist, because who cares?! However, it makes it harder to get things done in the real world. I can imagine that serious feminist movements that actually are trying to make a difference will also suffer from the bad rep that some frustrated teen with a tumblr blog created for them.

          Yes, in Europe it's mostly fine to call yourself a feminist as long as you are a woman, preferably a white woman. Or so I have noticed around the interwebs. Which, again, seems ridiculous.

          Yes, I know! I know! the leg shaving thing is old, but it does the trick for illustrating the difference. Now, a very recent thing I've hear was: *anecdote time* A flatmate of a friend of mine (Whom I've met when I hogged her couch for a few days) disagreed with us (my friend and my) on the subject of careers. We were saying that we wouldn't mind becoming a homemaker or housewife (Okay, now there's a word that just sounds stupid). She disagreed because it was unfeminist of us. She believes that man and woman should both equally provide for the household. Whereas we believed that if we were to have kids and a house we wouldn't mind staying at home and looking after the children because they'll need us more than we need a second car or and extra holiday. It's not like boyfriends/girlfriends/husbands/wives (covering all bases here) would force us to. It would simply be our choice. And because it would be our choice we'd do nothing unfeminist.

          Comment


            #6
            There's nothing wrong with radical thinking, as long as it's reasonable. If you believe women and men are equal, you're a feminist. You could deny that, but it's ridiculous. It's kinda like this: Click image for larger version

Name:	823da2460f97e8d515c432f9f2c0b2c7.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	17.2 KB
ID:	647693

            The problem with the leg-shaving example is this. When there's an oppressed group having an identity struggle (such as women, gays, people of colour, etc) they tend to do things to liberate themselves or rebell against establisht norms. So is not shaving legs. To me, this example works great, because I don't shave my legs, partly as a political statement, partly because I feel it's a waste of time. But when I was in primary school, I was the first one of the class who had body hair and people were bullying me because of that. So the policing of womens bodies start at very young age. Then I became obsessed with shaving (for real), which was completely unhealthy. To stop shaving was such a liberation for me, you really need guts to stand up against the policing of womens bodies (I had boys shouting at me in the supermarket that I belong in a mental hospital because of my hairy legs). So let's safely say that we are not there yet. But then comes the next problem: hanging out in both ''normal society'' and ''radical activist world'' gets me kind off in this world upside down thing. Now, when I shave my legs, or put make up on my face (I do that sometimes) I have to get over the feeling that I'm conforming to norms I dont agree with myself in the first place. But to become another oppressive force is the worst thing to do, ever, and oppressed groups should avoid this at all times.

            For example, I have been to action camps in Germany where feminist group hijacked the place and put this rule in order to make ''everybody feel safe and equal'': because for women it's socially unacceptable to walk around with naked breasts, the men and kids have to keep their shirts on.

            So rather than liberating the women around (by making them feel comfortable to take their shirts of if they want), they oppressed everyone else to get to the same level. And oh yeah, it was 40 degrees Celsius back then.

            Of course, me and other women and men started rebelling against this shit by walking around without bra's on (people getting pissed off at me because my body was too pretty and that could be intimidating to people who dont fall into the strict beauty norms) etc etc.

            I have very radical feminist friends who shave, put make up on, I even know a housewife (wow). They are all radical thinkers.
            To me, the best criterium I could find was, as long as someone consciensly made the choice to do a certain thing (to shave/not shave, put make or not, etc) it's fine. The target of feminism is, that all things and humans in their variety, with their different preferences, will be celebrated equally. And we are not there, NOOO...

            Anyway, I can advice everyone to stop shaving legs (or as a man, start shaving!) as a personal social experiment, it's really an interesting experience. Good that people are discussing feminism here.

            Comment


              #7
              This is such a complex issue. At one end of the scale, in western societies, the cause is for women not to be judged merely on their appearance while at the other, the bottom end, there are societies where women are still regarded as possessions and the basic right to have an education is seen as a major advance in their lives.

              Rightly or wrongly, there are many who see "feminism" as divisive: an "us or them" approach.

              The dream for universal equality remains a dream but maybe if enough of the population start thinking "people-ism" rather than "feminism" we might just begin to edge our way forward.

              Comment


                #8
                Feminism is the belief in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes. If you believe in that, you're a feminist.

                Feminism is also a broad movement made up of flawed human beings who don't agree with each other on every issue. Calling yourself a feminist doesn't mean you have to agree with everything ever said in the name of feminism. If you see feminists saying things you don't agree with, call them out on it, or ignore them and learn more about feminist ideas that you believe are right. Or, reflect on yourself, question why you disagree with them.

                I recommend reading Roxane Gay's "Bad Feminist". If you're used to getting information about feminism from tumblr or 4chan, you'll probably be surprised at how moderate her opinions are. I think it will resonate with you - it's very well written and explores the difficulties with reconciling feminist ideas with the real world. Do you believe in equality of the sexes but also like shaving your legs/misogynistic rap music/the colour pink/being a stay at home mum? Whatever, you're still a feminist. Here's an excerpt from the first essay (the others are less explicitly about feminism) to give you an idea of what the book's like.

                Great image about feminism Yara! Here's a funny song about the same issue, it's really great and everyone should watch it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI2Gst05m68. "You like voting? You like driving? You're a feminist".

                Finally, my housemate volunteers for a community TV show called The F Word. The production value is pretty much what you'd expect from community TV but the content is great. If you want to find out more about feminism, watching this show is a great place to start. I think you'll be surprised at how close the ideas are to what you already believe. Show website.
                Last edited by laney; 19 July 2015, 09:14 AM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  the challenge feminism has and most struggles for equality is that the empowered elements tend to think that treating another group equally means a "loss" of power in one way or another....its not a zero sum game but people then to think that if a law is passed mandating fairness there is nothing else to be done. Its these margins, however that can be crucial...(equal pay, influence in judicial, political and economic institutions and reproductive rights)...the most visible reminders of imbalance is revealed thru cultural bias in advertisements on TV and "norms" espoused thru schools etc.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Yara View Post
                    There's nothing wrong with radical thinking, as long as it's reasonable. If you believe women and men are equal, you're a feminist. You could deny that, but it's ridiculous. It's kinda like this ... The problem with the leg-shaving example is this. When there's an oppressed group having an identity struggle (such as women, gays, people of colour, etc) they tend to do things to liberate themselves or rebell against establisht norms. So is not shaving legs.
                    Totally agree with your opinion on radical thinking! Radical thinking = thinking outside of the box = pragmatic solution approaches, however you want to call it. That's were the problem starts for me. These discussions I find often influenced by the positive or negative feelings attached to certain terms, e. g. feminism. These feelings are mostly driven by medial influence. Different groups associate different feelings with terms. For you feminism draws a picture in your mind that is not necessary in line with mine.

                    Personally, I dont think women and men are equal, because they are not. Their bodies use different chemistries, have different attributes leading to different struggles, are in a different scope of social pressure applied to them originating in long term social developments. If you ask me if they should have the same rights, then I agree Not shaving your legs to me is a public demonstration of your resistance against the norms you feel are applied to you and speaks for a strong character. Its also an instrument to bond with people within the ideological system? Makes me feel really uncomfortable classifying people by their appearance.

                    While I would never take the liberty of calling 50% of population an oppressed group, I think it shows what I wrote in my first paragraph: medial influence and personal experience are a main driver of believes and resistance towards established standards. A few other oppressed groups have been overseen: Humans with religious believes, men..

                    Comment


                      #11
                      There's something that I feel people don't really talk much about (or maybe I just need to read more). It has become more and more acceptable for women to like or adopt typically masculine things, sometimes it even makes them more 'cool' and some are so commonplace they are now becoming gender neutral. However, the reverse process is not occurring with men. Men adopting feminine things just makes people assume or speculate that they are gay. You might say this is oppressive to men. It is oppressive to men who would like to be more feminine and are bullied over it, for sure. But it also says as a society, of course women want 'male' stuff, that stuff is inherently great and worth wanting, whereas you need to have something 'wrong' with you (like being gay) to want 'female' stuff and be a man. Therefore this is also still very misogynistic.

                      Some examples of what I mean:

                      When girls listen to aggressive music, guys will often praise a girl's 'good taste in music' but a man listening to primarily female vocalists, especially more melodic ones, would often be considered embarrassing. Or more specific, a girl rapping along to Jay-Z - cool. A guy singing along to Beyonce - better be a joke!

                      Pants and t-shirts have become pretty gender neutral items - as long as they are cut closer to men's styles. There has been a small change in this, with the recent popularity of pink shirts, men's deep v-necks, and skinny jeans, but I wouldn't call it balanced.

                      You can apply this to nearly anything.

                      Anyway, just some food for thought.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by laney View Post
                        I recommend reading Roxane Gay's "Bad Feminist".
                        I'm a bit late to the party, but she reminds me of the famous line by Walt Whitman: "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes." She realizes that some of her interests, preferences, opinions, likes and dislikes contradict one another, and that the aggregate therefore defies strict categorization. That has a way of annoying certain kinds of people. Her response? "Screw it." Thanks for the link; I'll have to look her up.


                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by renae d
                          There's something that I feel people don't really talk much about (or maybe I just need to read more). It has become more and more acceptable for women to like or adopt typically masculine things, sometimes it even makes them more 'cool' and some are so commonplace they are now becoming gender neutral. However, the reverse process is not occurring with men. Men adopting feminine things just makes people assume or speculate that they are gay. You might say this is oppressive to men. It is oppressive to men who would like to be more feminine and are bullied over it, for sure. But it also says as a society, of course women want 'male' stuff, that stuff is inherently great and worth wanting, whereas you need to have something 'wrong' with you (like being gay) to want 'female' stuff and be a man. Therefore this is also still very misogynistic.

                          Some examples of what I mean:

                          When girls listen to aggressive music, guys will often praise a girl's 'good taste in music' but a man listening to primarily female vocalists, especially more melodic ones, would often be considered embarrassing. Or more specific, a girl rapping along to Jay-Z - cool. A guy singing along to Beyonce - better be a joke!

                          Pants and t-shirts have become pretty gender neutral items - as long as they are cut closer to men's styles. There has been a small change in this, with the recent popularity of pink shirts, men's deep v-necks, and skinny jeans, but I wouldn't call it balanced.

                          You can apply this to nearly anything.

                          Anyway, just some food for thought.


                          I get what you mean; I've had first-hand experience with it. My ex-wife once asked me if I were certain that I wasn't gay. I can only assume that she posed the question because of my musical preferences and political views, if you catch my meaning. I certainly wasn't insulted, but in context, I couldn't help but feel that she meant for me to be.

                          Speaking of food for thought, Renae--are you familiar with professional wrestling? During Wednesday's match between Bayley and Sasha Banks, for example, you had two women headlining a major event in a predominantly male sport. The predominantly male crowd went crazy for both of them. Most importantly, they put on one of the best wrestling matches you will see, irrespective of gender. I don't necessarily know where I'm going with this, but I'd be interested to hear your take on it.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Renae, that because typical masculine things are considered better, cooler, stronger, etc, than typical feminine things. Also, whats feminine and masculine is a ridiculous debate I don't want to even start, so I'm not saying here that there are masculine and feminine things or character traits, but let's say there are A LOT of these which society considers feminine and masculine, and this is where a lot of trouble starts of course.

                            And feminism isn't about an ''us and them'' approach. Feminism is also there for men, because it's generally anti-sexist, and sexism is extremely hurtful to men as well, because of internalized gender stereotypes. I would say feminism is for the liberation of people from there gendered stereotypes, violence, etc.
                            Last edited by Yara; 18 October 2015, 06:46 PM.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Yara View Post
                              Also, whats feminine and masculine is a ridiculous debate I don't want to even start, so I'm not saying here that there are masculine and feminine things or character traits, but let's say there are A LOT of these which society considers feminine and masculine, and this is where a lot of trouble starts of course.
                              So you're saying that you, personally, reject the usefulness of terms like "masculine" and "feminine." I'm with you there--I think my wrestling example is particularly salient. I'll spare you the details, but Bayley and Sasha Banks had been involved in a storyline for many months when they had their landmark match; the beauty of that story arc was that you could have swapped them out for two male wrestlers without having to change a thing. It's impossible in that instance to adhere to any strict definition of masculinity and femininity, and still appreciate the meaning of that event with respect to pop culture. (Or at least, a particular niche of pop culture.)

                              But how do you engage with people who DO accept those two terms as representing real, meaningful categories? How do you convince people that the norms they have accepted for so long are, in fact, meaningless, if not damaging? Do you even try, or do you look for some kind of cultural work-around?

                              Comment

                              Subscribe to our e-mail newsletter

                               
                              Sign up for the abby newsletter. Don't worry, we'll NEVER share your email address with anyone.
                              Working...
                              X