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    #31
    Originally posted by JacksonP49 View Post
    Second, I'd be interested to hear how Ben feels about finishing that way 75% of the time. As a male, I can say that it definitely would not be my preferred method. Maybe some men like it occasionally just for a change to see what it's like, but 75% of the time, definitely not. As the opening poster said, it looks unnatural and porny, and I think that's because when a man is inside a woman and working up to a climax, that's where about 99% of men would prefer to stay to finish. Even in your own shoot with Ben, I remember thinking at the end that you both seemed to be building up to a climax, with you saying, "Yes! Yes!", and it was rather a surprise when Ben pulled out and finished the way he did, leaving you high and dry (metaphorically speaking). Frankly, it didn't seem very natural.

    Fourth, sex during menstruation. Call me narrow-minded, but not my cup of tea at all.

    And last, rubbing it in and not bathing afterwards, well, to each his (or her) own. But cum is not exactly odour-free, and I'm wondering if you occasionally get any strange looks.

    Anyway, it's interesting to hear another point of view.
    Well, I always give my partner the option of using a condom in order to finish inside me, and literally 10 times out of 10 they choose to forego the condom and pull out instead. Obviously first choice is to come inside me and not use a condom, but that isn't one of the choices. And I am not obligated to use hormonal contraceptives to provide this, which everyone has been relatively supportive of.

    Sex during menstruation is relatively new for me, but I'm all for it, in the right circumstances. It's very freeing when someone fully accepts you and your body and you feel that nothing about you is "gross." In some ways it is good to be reminded of how very lucky I am to have found people who love and accept all of my body naturally.

    Similarly, the odor thing doesn't really concern me. I don't really like how people are always bathing. Any parter I have I encourage to only bathe at most every other day, ideally only 2-3 times a week. I even like a bit of morning breath. The people I am with like my smells and I like theirs and smelling one another on the other is just sexy. I have to admit though, I've never thought, "hmm, I smell semen."

    I think the bottom line though, is that you are viewing couples have sex who have allowed you to watch them have sex. We are not the majority or the average for the general population. We are by the very nature of what we have done, different, specifically with regards to sex. We can be asked to conform to the image of abby winters, but that would also be artifice. And frankly, I am as abby-winters-y as it gets; no tats, no piercings, very well educated, non-drinker, non-smoker, non-drug-user, hairy, and generally thong-less, make-up-less, and high-heel-less, by nature. If you get any more wholesome than me, you get a girl who is not going to be having sex on camera at all.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by timbo83 View Post
      bottom line: to belive it's not common among real couples is not true because it IS common
      I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree about that. Very common in porn shoots, yes. Otherwise, no.

      Comment


        #33
        Thanks for the very interesting and frank reply, Renae. And it's nice to encounter someone who likes arguing as much as me.

        Originally posted by renae_d View Post
        Well, I always give my partner the option of using a condom in order to finish inside me, and literally 10 times out of 10 they choose to forego the condom and pull out instead. Obviously first choice is to come inside me and not use a condom, but that isn't one of the choices. And I am not obligated to use hormonal contraceptives to provide this, which everyone has been relatively supportive of.
        OK, I accept that, but as you say, first choice is "obviously" to come inside you without a condom. You've ruled that out by choosing not to use hormonal contraceptives, but I'd guess you'd be in the minority there. It really leaves Ben with two choices, condom or pull out, and I'd guess also that he'd be in the minority in choosing the latter.


        Originally posted by renae_d View Post
        Sex during menstruation is relatively new for me, but I'm all for it, in the right circumstances. It's very freeing when someone fully accepts you and your body and you feel that nothing about you is "gross." In some ways it is good to be reminded of how very lucky I am to have found people who love and accept all of my body naturally.
        I wasn't saying nobody should do it. But it's still not my cup of tea.

        Originally posted by renae_d View Post
        Similarly, the odor thing doesn't really concern me. I don't really like how people are always bathing. Any parter I have I encourage to only bathe at most every other day, ideally only 2-3 times a week. I even like a bit of morning breath. The people I am with like my smells and I like theirs and smelling one another on the other is just sexy. I have to admit though, I've never thought, "hmm, I smell semen."
        Well, I wasn't expecting that. Morning breath is one of life's great turn-offs for me, and I'm very definitely in the "bathe every day and more often if you need it" camp, but chacun à son goût, as they say in gay Paree.

        Originally posted by renae_d View Post
        I think the bottom line though, is that you are viewing couples have sex who have allowed you to watch them have sex. We are not the majority or the average for the general population. We are by the very nature of what we have done, different, specifically with regards to sex. We can be asked to conform to the image of abby winters, but that would also be artifice. And frankly, I am as abby-winters-y as it gets; no tats, no piercings, very well educated, non-drinker, non-smoker, non-drug-user, hairy, and generally thong-less, make-up-less, and high-heel-less, by nature. If you get any more wholesome than me, you get a girl who is not going to be having sex on camera at all.
        Not sure that I follow your logic here. What you say is true: the vast majority of the population do not get photographed and video-ed having sex and do not exhibit the products to the world. But I don't see that that makes it more likely that they'll end their lovemaking sessions with a money shot.

        I don't think it's really on-topic but it was very interesting to see what you say about "the image of Abby Winters". For me, the image of Abby Winters is not tatt- and piercing-free, nor non-drinker non-smoker, hairy, make-up-less, etc. The image of Abby Winters is "your cute girl next door type", "real amateurs" most of whom have "never done any nude modelling before". I put all those bits in quotes because they actually are quotes: they are from the Abby Winters tour page. That's what Abby Winters says its models are like. Now girls next door who have never done any nude modelling before are not necessarily hairy, or tatt-free, or any of those other things, but they are "real amateurs" and they've mostly "never done any nude modelling before" and I'd agree with you that they don't do Boy-Girl porn shoots. I'd also say that by and large they don't end their lovemaking sessions with their steady boyfriends with a money shot.

        So there it is. I don't know how many of my posts you've read, but you may have noticed their general theme, which is that since the move to Amsterdam, where the supply of the type of models that the site advertises has almost (not entirely, but almost) dried up, so that we are getting mostly very experienced models many of whom are full-time porn models, the site has been trying to do two contradictory things. On the one hand, it's looking as much as possible for the tatt-free, hairy, make-up free model, as if those things (rather than the inexperienced amateur status of the models) are the essence of Abby Winters; and on the other hand it's been introducing progressively more porny, mainstream material to the site: BG shoots, stagey setups, lots more anal stuff, more toys, pee in every second shoot -- a Sybian, for Heaven's sake! What I've been saying is that if the site is going to have experienced and professional porn models as its mainstay, then it should not try to present them as if they're the "girl next door type" who is a "real amateur" and who probably has "never done any nude modelling before": it should be up-front and open about it and encourage the models to talk about their experiences and what they like and don't like about nude modelling. It should not try to pass the professionals off as amateurs: it's misleading and it doesn't work anyway.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by JacksonP49 View Post
          Not sure that I follow your logic here. What you say is true: the vast majority of the population do not get photographed and video-ed having sex and do not exhibit the products to the world. But I don't see that that makes it more likely that they'll end their lovemaking sessions with a money shot.

          So there it is. I don't know how many of my posts you've read, but you may have noticed their general theme, which is that since the move to Amsterdam, where the supply of the type of models that the site advertises has almost (not entirely, but almost) dried up, so that we are getting mostly very experienced models many of whom are full-time porn models, the site has been trying to do two contradictory things. On the one hand, it's looking as much as possible for the tatt-free, hairy, make-up free model, as if those things (rather than the inexperienced amateur status of the models) are the essence of Abby Winters; and on the other hand it's been introducing progressively more porny, mainstream material to the site: BG shoots, stagey setups, lots more anal stuff, more toys, pee in every second shoot -- a Sybian, for Heaven's sake! What I've been saying is that if the site is going to have experienced and professional porn models as its mainstay, then it should not try to present them as if they're the "girl next door type" who is a "real amateur" and who probably has "never done any nude modelling before": it should be up-front and open about it and encourage the models to talk about their experiences and what they like and don't like about nude modelling. It should not try to pass the professionals off as amateurs: it's misleading and it doesn't work anyway.
          Well, I suppose my question then, is what you would want them to do. I suppose ideally you would prefer they not do b/g at all, in which case, why complain about how its done? You don't like it, period. Because when I did my shoot, almost zero direction was given. The most would be a softly spoken, "could you move your hand a bit" sort of thing. Should they tell the couple, please do not do this list of things, i.e. anal, cumming on your gf, or whatever else counts as porny? As another non-bg example, I suggested using the anal plug in my second solo, two items on your porn-y list (anal and toys). Should they have said no? For me, that was much more arousing and normal then putting fingers inside my vagina, something that does very little for me.

          I do think it is interesting that straight-sex is more mainstream than girl on girl sex when the two girls may be virtual strangers (pretty mainstream to me) and the straight couple are real-life lovers. This seems like an issue of preference more than anything else.

          I actually tend to agree with you on the latter bit and the core of your criticism, but I think you are over-applying it in some cases, obviously this being one of them.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by renae_d View Post
            Well, I suppose my question then, is what you would want them to do. I suppose ideally you would prefer they not do b/g at all, in which case, why complain about how its done? You don't like it, period. Because when I did my shoot, almost zero direction was given. The most would be a softly spoken, "could you move your hand a bit" sort of thing. Should they tell the couple, please do not do this list of things, i.e. anal, cumming on your gf, or whatever else counts as porny? As another non-bg example, I suggested using the anal plug in my second solo, two items on your porn-y list (anal and toys). Should they have said no? For me, that was much more arousing and normal then putting fingers inside my vagina, something that does very little for me.

            I do think it is interesting that straight-sex is more mainstream than girl on girl sex when the two girls may be virtual strangers (pretty mainstream to me) and the straight couple are real-life lovers. This seems like an issue of preference more than anything else.

            I actually tend to agree with you on the latter bit and the core of your criticism, but I think you are over-applying it in some cases, obviously this being one of them.
            You're right, Renae, I would prefer them not to do BG at all. That being the case, why complain about the way it's done? I suppose because it is being done, and because the pop-shot thing just leaps out as being a porn convention that began sometime in the 1970s or 1980s and has become almost universal ever since, although (as I continue to believe despite all the protestation to the contrary in this thread) it is rarely done between ordinary lovers in real life.

            As for the other things (anal, toys, etc), I should perhaps have put it a bit differently last time. All of those things have been done on this site in the past, i.e., pre-Amsterdam. What's happened since the move to Amsterdam is that they've become far, far more common, with the result that the site now looks much more mainstream. Now whether that's driven by AW management or by the models or by some combination of the two, I don't know because I'm not involved in it, but my guess is that it's a combination of the two. You're an amateur and a very adventurous one, but most of the AW models now are heavily involved in the porn industry and thus quite at home with all of the current fashions in mainstream porn, so I'm not surprised if the pornification of the site is as much the result of the models' own initiative as of management decisions.

            Just as a matter of interest, have you had a look at any of the old AW shoots? Have a look at the newly-released Beck shoot, especially the video. Then Sue-Ann's first solo shoot http://www.abbywinters.com/shoot/sue_ann And as an example of a DIM, Emma R and Armine http://www.abbywinters.com/shoot/emma_r_armine The last two happen to be favourites of mine, but there are literally hundreds of others from the Australian days that have the same style and feel about them.

            I'm not a technical person and I've got very little idea about how porn shoots are conducted, but the whole style and feel of those shoots seems to me to be completely different from what is currently being produced. To me they seem much more natural, freewheeling, totally unforced, truly amateur. I don't see anything like that being produced in Amsterdam. Do you agree? I'd be very interested to hear whether you also think that there are enormous differences, and what your thoughts are about why shoots like that can't be made in Amsterdam. For myself, I think it's because the models are different, being mostly very experienced and often full-time professionals. If that's right, then it means that the old Abby Winters is gone forever, or at least until a strong supply of genuinely amateur models is found from somewhere. And if that's right, then the question becomes how does AW deal with the fact that it can't any longer produce the product that it became famous for?
            Last edited by JacksonP49; 19 September 2012, 09:47 AM.

            Comment


              #36
              As the original poster, I appreciate the conversation--both from the models and from the members. I do just want to pop in and say that my question was prompted by curiosity, not be a desire to critique the models or the site. (Though I certainly have no problem with JacksonP49 contributing his point of view.) As I said in the beginning, I quite like the girl-boy shoots, and I liked Renae's in particular. I don't particularly care for the cum shots, but for me, that's sort of beside the point. What I like about Abby Winters is that I don't get the impression that the models are primarily trying to please the customers, but are enjoying themselves. Of course, pleasing the members is important or there wouldn't be a site, but I think Abby Winters tries to walk that line, and in general, I think it walks the line pretty well.

              So it was interesting to hear from some of the models about what they like. I am surprised at what so many of you have said, and, like Jackson, I sort of doubt that it's representative of couples everywhere. But that's okay with me. It's interesting that no one has said, "Oh, I did that in my shot because I thought it was expected." Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. It's what I really do value about this site.
              Last edited by MrSack85; 20 September 2012, 04:36 AM. Reason: copy editing

              Comment


                #37
                Okay--just one more thing. Personally, I do like the "girl next door" type without tattoos and piercings, but that's just personal taste. I agree with Jackson, that this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being and amateur vs. professional.

                But I think the amateur vs. professional distinction isn't what's important. What's important (to me at least) is that it's real sex--that the women on the site enjoy it and have fun with it and find it genuinely arousing. THAT'S what makes it different from mainstream porn. So I don't want to suggest that women who do porn professionally never have fun or have real sex. But I doubt that they do it on camera many other places than Abby Winters.

                Hmm. It would be interesting to hear about models' experiences with other types of porn or on other sites. But that's probably another thread.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by MrSack85 View Post
                  But I think the amateur vs. professional distinction isn't what's important. What's important (to me at least) is that it's real sex--that the women on the site enjoy it and have fun with it and find it genuinely arousing. THAT'S what makes it different from mainstream porn.
                  And to me (talking about he G/G and solo sex.. as I don't watch the B/G stuff). Jackson can ramble on as much as he likes but the fact that what they are doing is real... with the aim/target of them both getting genuinely aroused whether he cum inside her, on her or on the curtains doesn't really change the fact that this is a significant difference between Mainstream and here at AW. You can use the stat of 100% for that one.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by mrpinkeyes View Post
                    And to me (talking about he G/G and solo sex.. as I don't watch the B/G stuff). Jackson can ramble on as much as he likes but the fact that what they are doing is real... with the aim/target of them both getting genuinely aroused whether he cum inside her, on her or on the curtains doesn't really change the fact that this is a significant difference between Mainstream and here at AW. You can use the stat of 100% for that one.
                    For me the core of the site has always been the solos, with the IMs in second place, the GGs quite a long way behind in third and the BGs trailing somewhere in the dim dark distance.

                    So the differences between the solos pre- and post-move are what concern me most, and they are very obvious, starting with the fact that there are only about a third as many of them.

                    The IMs and the GGs don't seem to me to be quite the same as they used to be either. It's not that the girls don't have real orgasms: most of the time they seem to do that. It's more the way they're now often set up with some silly and totally unconvincing storyline, and in the GGs, which I have to admit I don't usually watch very closely, there's often a bit of a feeling of the girls conscientiously doing positions A, B, C, D and so on -- someone else commented on that a while ago. Also the fact that there are so few models on the site now means that there are many more reappearances than there used to be.

                    And just by the way, Abby Winters is not the only site where the girls have real orgasms in masturbation and lesbian shoots. Or BG shoots, for that matter. There aren't a lot of them, but there certainly are some.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by JacksonP49 View Post
                      For me the core of the site has always been the solos, with the IMs in second place, the GGs quite a long way behind in third and the BGs trailing somewhere in the dim dark distance.
                      Totally agree with the first part and the last part... to me the IM's and G/G are very close to the solos.

                      Originally posted by JacksonP49 View Post
                      So the differences between the solos pre- and post-move are what concern me most, and they are very obvious, starting with the fact that there are only about a third as many of them.
                      Can't argue with the numbers... but I'm a little less concerned as I'm still happy with the quality (ignoring the scripted stuff) but this is probably the wrong thread to be commenting on such stuff.

                      Originally posted by JacksonP49 View Post
                      The IMs and the GGs don't seem to me to be quite the same as they used to be either. It's not that the girls don't have real orgasms: most of the time they seem to do that. It's more the way they're now often set up with some silly and totally unconvincing storyline, and in the GGs, which I have to admit I don't usually watch very closely, there's often a bit of a feeling of the girls conscientiously doing positions A, B, C, D and so on -- someone else commented on that a while ago. Also the fact that there are so few models on the site now means that there are many more reappearances than there used to be.
                      Agree with the scripted parts... and it was me that commented on the A,B,C D approach to the g/g shoots so they mirror the image sets or vice versa. But my comments were based on most G/G shoots before and after the move.
                      Originally posted by JacksonP49 View Post
                      And just by the way, Abby Winters is not the only site where the girls have real orgasms in masturbation and lesbian shoots. Or BG shoots, for that matter. There aren't a lot of them, but there certainly are some.
                      Accept that... some others in Oz to start... but as you hinted and I said it is a difference between Mainstream and here at AW.
                      Even though it seems there is a lot that totally disagree with... we actually are on the same side on many of the issues... It seems maybe I'm more a idealist and your more the fundamentalist... on this subject... haha... or something like that.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Of course you can find "standards" in the porn industry, but no one can sincerely deny that it's up to each couple to decide how to cum, when to cum, where to cum and what to do with the sperm! The idea of being OBLIGATED to cum inside a girl for any other reason than trying to get her pregnant would sound absolutely nonsense for me, thinking about a real-life sex experience. Paradoxically, the "cum inside" claim is a serious restraint to the shoot's spontainety. If I ever decided to being filmed by a third-person while having sex, I'd prefer that the decision about the "cum issue" would be let to me and my partner...

                        Comment


                          #42
                          When AW first moved to Amsterdam and Jackson pointed out the 'pornification' of the site I was one of his strongest supporters. There was something about some of the models back then that just screamed 'mainstream porn performers' and AW (Garion, I think) admitted on these boards that several of them were indeed professional porn stars. I was prepared to accept that this was just a teething problem caused by the move and Garion seemed to understand the need for more 'amateur' models. Now, unlike Jackson, I actually think AW has managed to keep away from that 'mainstream porn' end product. True they don't seem to be finding as many willing models, which is a shame, but I do think they are doing their best to resolve the issues that Jackson and I complained of in those early Amsterdam days. Now Jackson is objecting to some more things that he sees as different (and more porny):
                          Girl-Boy - sorry Jackson but I'm one of those who thinks the girl-boy series is a major step AWAY from mainstream porn. I just love that AW now offers us the chance to watch real-life lovers having loving, passionate and mutually enjoyable sex. Many thanks to all the couples who have been filmed in this way.
                          Toys - I don't have a problem with toys at all. The ethos of the site is that the girls should do what they enjoy and there is no doubt that lots of women enjoy toys; some at least will find it easier, quicker and more exciting to masturbate using a toy that with their hands alone. As long as they are doing what gives them pleasure and are showing us REAL pleasure, rather than faking it then i don't see the problem.
                          Simian - I'm amazed that anyone could watch Nichole on the Simian and NOT think it was highly arousing and REAL. To see any woman getting so sexually aroused was a real turn-on for me so I don't have a problem there.
                          Money shots - Like Jackson and Mrsack I've been disappointed in the number of money shots for the very reasons they have said about it seeming 'porny and unnatural'. However, having read this thread I'm willing to accept that for a lot of people in this age group it isn't so unusual to pull out before ejaculating and I'm also happy to believe that if models do this it is THEIR CHOICE and not due to an instruction from AW. I hope they don't make this choice because its what they think WE will prefer - what I want to watch is whatever THEY prefer.
                          Set-up storylines - for me, some of the most enjoyable GG shoots have had set-up storylines (Like Cleo and Larissa seducing each other over a meal, and Marigold and Christiana's road-trip) so I don't have a problem with it. Sometimes it can be a bit cheesy and false but sometimes it works. I've actually loved some of the Dominant/Submissive scenarios featuring the likes of Fenna and Carmina.
                          Having said all of that in defence of AW, I still feel that it hasn't recaptured the glories of the Aussie days and consequently I only flit in and out of the site instead of maintaining a permanent membership. I'm disappointed in how few new models we are offered and consequently how many shots offer just the same models in endless permutations of pairings. And, with apologies to the staff involved, I don't think the standard of photography and filming is as high as it was in the days of Jackie and Michele; they're a tough act to follow. And, for me, the new tags system is nowhere near as good as the system it replaced.
                          But I'll keep on checking back in here looking for the gems that are sent our way now and again.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            I would change 'Simian' to 'Sybian' in that post Sir I'm sure many will agree a Simian on AW would not fit the site's style Good post otherwise.

                            Oh if you're editing, add some more white space.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Is Jackson P back on the boards, didn't he warn about a slippery slope? Nothing, could be more slippery that Girl/Simian sex.
                              Bonobo's are people too, but I don't want their dirty hands on our Abby girls.
                              Draw the line, I say!

                              Comment


                                #45
                                I've never actually left the boards. It seems that on this site, once you're a member, you don't lose your posting rights even if your sub lapses, which is great. Also, I got $40 of free credits because of an AW accounting error, and I've been spending it purchasing the odd shoot. I got the Alyshia shoot with the Sybian, but I refrained from saying anything about it, until now, anyway.

                                ConnorSir, I think you make many valid points.

                                Girl-boy: There are members who like it and members who don't, and I'm one of those who don't.

                                Toys have never been an issue for me. The Sybian, on the other hand, I could do without. This site is supposed to be about ordinary girls who you'd meet in the office or behind a reception desk or whatever. Girls like that might have a vibrator in the drawer next to their bed, but they don't have a Sybian. The Sybian turns the shoot into something like a circus performance and is mainstream porn through and through. I'm not saying that it doesn't cause genuine reactions, I'm just saying that I'm not interested in watching a girl performing with a Sybian.

                                As for the money shots that started this thread, we'll have to agree to differ. I accept that some ordinary couples do it in real life, usually as a contraceptive measure. I don't accept that it's common, and I don't think it's coincidence that the boy-girl shoots on this site usually end with a pop shot.

                                I agree with you about the number of solos, and the fact that having so few new models means that the same faces keep turning up again and again. That's not to say they aren't nice faces, but it does mean that there's a lack of variety.

                                Photography? The photography back in Australia wasn't always perfect, but the fact that there were so many shoots meant that there was always something pretty excellent coming up. I think the photographers in Amsterdam are improving, and that their best is pretty good.

                                As for the models, I don't think we're getting the real hardcore professionals that we got a few of back in the early days of Amsterdam, but we're getting very few, if any, who are just doing a "one-off" for a bit of excitement and a bit of extra cash. Most of the models now have either done a lot of nude modelling already, or it's their first step towards a career in porn. It's the one-shoot wonders that I miss the most.

                                The biggest problem remains the lack of models, which means that the number of solos remains at about a third of what it used to be: two a week, whereas we used to get at least six a week. I've asked many times why the number of solos can't be increased and never got an answer, so I've given up expecting one.

                                Comment


                                  #46
                                  This is my first time posting on the boards in...five or so years.

                                  1. As much as I love the solos and girl/girl shoots, I approve of the boy/girl additions, esp. when its a girl I am accustomed to seeing with in a less than hetero light.

                                  2. I have very little use for the money shot myself and always thought it was an odd thing to do. The very idea of being inside a woman and pulling out to masturbate a bit before climax has never taken with me.

                                  3. Although there do seem to be few genuine reasons for it, I believe they are in greater number than has thus far been presented; some folks just like the way the warmth feels on them.

                                  4. In the 15 years I have been with my wife I think I have cum ON her maybe five times. neck, breasts, stomach, pussy, and ass. A bit of changing things up now and again were more than likely the reasons but we both prefer the inside finish, as have all of my other lovers.

                                  5. As to the toys, I dislike anything that obscures my view of the bodies unless its another body. I do appreciate the variety in body types on this site though.

                                  Comment

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