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    Poll: Photoshop sometimes?

    Some time ago, we asked how customers would feel about models wearing a little makeup sometimes. The poll showed some interesting results, and the discussion was even more interesting. It ended up with a definition of what "a little" is, and how often "sometimes" really means. It's a touchy topic, so we decided to stick with what we have done int he past: no make-up, apart from a little mascara.

    But now a separate topic: Photoshop. We all know Photoshop can be used to reshape models bodies, change skin texture, add things that were never there, or remove things that were there. Some say it's responsible (partly) for young women's dysfunctional personal body image (as only "perfect" women are shown in magazines, made perfect by lots of photoshop). Like makeup, it's a touchy subject, and a matter of "it depends".

    But we'd never re-shape a model's body, add (or remove) pubic hair, make her labia look "nicer" (whatever that means!) or anything like that.

    But here's a realistic scenario we're often faced with. A model shows up for shoot, she's super-excited to do it, and we've been looking forwards to it as well. But she has a few whitehead pimples on her face. Currently, we'd re-schedule that shoot to a week later when the acne had cleared up. But sometimes there are scheduling problems, and it turns out we're never able to shoot that model again. That's a shame, but but with our no-Photoshop rule, it's just how it works here. We put a lot of effort to work with models on their grooming before they arrive, and that certainly helps.

    Another scenario: a model has some poo on her anus. For most people, that's not sexy, but in the real world, it happens of course. Should those images be dis-included from the set, no matter how good they are? Or should they be photoshopped to look spotless? It'd likely mean customers get more and better images in a set, and models would feel more comfy looking at their own sets.

    Of course, "Photoshop" is not possible at all on video shoots, so then we're stuck with stills and video shoots looking different, but the resolution is lower on video shoots, so we can "get away" with more than we can on stills shoots.

    Most likely, the answer is "it depends", but we'd like to hear your thoughts on the subject.
    179
    Absolutely not. No Photoshop ever (as it has been, til now, December 2014)
    82.12%
    147
    Small amounts - a few images per set for real problems - might be ok sometimes.
    16.76%
    30
    I don;t mind how much images are Photoshopped
    1.12%
    2
    Last edited by garionhall; 9 December 2014, 04:04 PM. Reason: Added link to makeup poll thread.

    #2
    I know abbywinters.com already for few years, and I remember that I fall in love in this company because of the natural way of being, shooting models as they are without any photoshop required. Later on when I started working here I noticed how much effort we put in informing models about our grooming requirements and how much effort we put in shooting around some grooming issues - it is not easy but also it shows how creative people can get if they need to shoot around something (like bad grooming) and it also shows there is a solution for any possible issue.

    Of course, photoshoping is one of possible solutions, but I think if you are invested enough in your craft (looking from photographer or videographer point of view) you will try to get everything right while shooting not while post processing. Me as a photographer, I rather put more effort in preparation and make sure the model is ready to go in the day of the shoot then later, spend time in front of computer photoshoping images (I could in that same time start preparing another shoot or go to do jogging to refresh my brain!).

    Also if we start with photoshoping how we set up boundaries, how we will know what we should photoshop or we should not, and also while doing grooming check do we have to involve a "photoshoper" in it or we will allow shooters to make the call on it.... So basically, I am saying NO!! for photoshop.

    Comment


      #3
      I agree with everything Izzy expressed above, i definitely would not want to see photoshopping of images on the site. In the first scenario above I would rather see the model even with minor skin imperfections. This site has always been about showing the girls as they are imperfections and all, these things are natural and shouldn't be hidden. In the second scenario I would rather see the images excluded from the set than altered, I would rather see the shooter shoot around something like this as Izzy suggested. The shoot can still be a strong one minus a few close ups.

      Comment


        #4
        The " no touch up " approach was my immediate reaction but having thought about a little more and taking into consideration the model's sensitivity of say; a noticeable pimple on her nose and providing her with the option of " touching up or not " would definitely play a role in the the model's overall confidence and the final product.

        p.s I doubt that we would even pay attention or even notice these small imperfections unless it's as prominent as Martha's mole on the brow of her nose

        Comment


          #5
          We are here to see natural girls. We can understand that girls are real humans and can have grooming issues. There's no need to try to hide them by using Photoshop or any other solution.

          Comment


            #6
            tjsunray, just to be clear, the mole on Martha's nose is DEFINITELY not something we would photoshop out ever.

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              #7
              My preference would be to see models in their most natural form, with no followup alterations. However with regard for the poo example I think that would be a reasonable exception in order to keep the photo. I noticed this once in a long-ago stills set and did find it off-putting.

              Comment


                #8
                I am a big fan of Photoshopping. If a picture needs to be Photoshopped, then do it. PhotoShopping a picture doesn't necessarily mean touching up the model, it can also mean enhancing the colors in the photo.

                There was a thread about this some time ago, and I used an AW picture to show how it could be PhotoShopped to make it look better. In the picture, I brought out the color in the model's hair, blouse, grass (she was sitting on a blanket in the grass), lips, eyes, etc. I didn't change anything about the model, I just brought out what the camera missed.

                I don't see anything wrong with removing pimples or blemishes that the model had on the day of the photo shoot, because these blemishes are NOT what that model usually looks like. Why show her in a less attractive state, when that's not what she typically looks like, but just so happened to look like on the day of the shoot? We all have bad days, so why make a model have to see herself on that bad day, simply because AW wasn't able to PhotoShop the pictures to make them look like what the model normally looks like?....and besides, it's the model's pictures, so if she wants to have certain things PhotoShopped, then that should be her right.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I do believe something called 'color correction' is done on the pics as a set. This thread is about photoshopping/altering how the model looks though.

                  All of this is subjective. Some people might very well prefer a model with some 'blemishes'. For that matter, what a model views as 'blemish' might not be such to the viewers, girls tend to think much to critical of themselves already. I keep thinking of a playboy shoot years ago where the editor considered a belly-button to be blemish and removed it.. ;-)

                  Relaxing the grooming requirements would be easier, and result in the same questions.. namely what would be good limits/requirements?

                  Keep in mind that most members go to AW to view 'natural' models which most will take to mean unaltered pictures. If you are perceived to edit sometimes, that might impact how people view AW as a whole.
                  (as good photoshop work is hard to detect a lot of untouched works would also be viewed with some suspicion)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I voted NO... Never.... with this being based purely on principle and my gut reaction and my concern that all of a sudden models tattoos have disappears for the photo shoot.

                    But.... Garion could you give some example of some before and after picture of what you are wanting to do, or how far you are willing to go?

                    Thanks

                    Comment


                      #11
                      For once I think I agree with Frans. This is supposed to be a site where we see real girls as they are. Once you start tampering with that, where does it end. What about tattoos, for example? Many models have tattoos, because that's the fashion, unfortunately. Already the site goes to rather ridiculous lengths to cover them up, with the model taking off clothes and then putting them back on to hide the tattoo. If you'd photoshop a pimple, why wouldn't you photoshop a tattoo? Or a scar? Or a bruise? Or a mole? And you end up with all the models looking as blemish free as the plastic girls in Playboy.

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                        #12
                        I agree with simono on this.

                        For some reason,I find spots and pimples far less off-putting than poo!I would hope that any photoshopping would be strictly limited to such ''alterations'',very strictly limited.That alterations haven't been part of AW has been one of its big attractions over the years and I hope it doesn't change this policy.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I like the girls just the way they are. They are supposed to be average "girl next door type" which I enjoy looking at. The pimples and other blemishes make them seem more real, like someone I would meet. I really don't mind the poo on the anus, and would not mind seeing more pics like that. Maybe we can do a "best of" type picture collection of dirty anuses. I have never had a lot of female contact, so I always had my doubts as to if they really did poo, which is partially how my interest in looking at anuses developed, and seeing some poo lets me know that my favorite Abby girls are human and do poo. :-)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Personally if it ain't broke don't fix it. At the moment we have a black and white policy - we are a natural website, we don't photoshop we are on a 'mission' to show woman as they really are because we think real woman are beautiful. When I meet potential new models to explain what would be involved if they choose to do a photo shoot with us, this element of honesty is often what they find so appealing. If we start to muddy the waters with exceptions to our own rules where does it stop - you are adding in an element of grey. What is to stop a creative decision creeping in to just try this one thing for effect reasons and variety this one time and then before you know it we are miles away from the starting line or worse having some models with one finish and some with another both of which I think are dangerous and misleading.

                            I like that I work for a natural real site, it is refreshing after years of watching orange models with fake eye lashes and impossibly smooth skin and near comical hip to waist ratios to be somewhere with just one goal - do you look healthy and happy - such great principles. Nothing worth while was ever easy, sure it can be disappointing when a model you were really excited to work with has an accident so we have to wait two more weeks to shoot with her but much better that than to add an element of untruth to her images.

                            It happened last week that one of the woman I was speaking to about possibly working for abbywinters told me that she was hoping to find herself through doing this experience, to learn to love her own image and to gain confidence in herself and this is quite common. For some of our woman the bare all no make up rule can be a huge social leap, I know several woman who have never been out in public without make up on due to confidence issues so for a woman to over come that and to be able to look at her untouched photos and appreciate her beauty and what makes her special, thats the gift of abbywinters and I would be so sad to see that gift die. No matter how much work a photo gets when you start taking away from a models skin you take away part of her on that day and I want to feel beautiful everyday of my life not just on the days when someone has taken the red tint out of my cheeks or the odd pimple from my face because thats the face I have to go home with.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              As my late husband used to say "Baby, that's just what you look like."

                              Comment


                                #16
                                When delivering an Information Session to applicants for nude modeling work with us, I always say: ‘ we don’t use make-up and Photoshop in the shoots because we believe that you are most beautiful when you are totally natural’. I whish I could show you the delighted faces I always get to see after saying this. After that I explain that there is nothing to be worried about because we work with professional shooters who are trained up to make sure she will look absolutely amazing!

                                Being a shooter, I am extremely proud of our production work. To get models appear with good grooming or shoot around bad grooming can be challenging. But it makes models to appear natural, exactly as they are, as we like to see them Besides that it makes me a better shooter when I am challenged this way than when my images can be fixed in Photoshop. And I can keep telling my friends with pride about the amazing work we make, all natural; no make-up no Photoshop pure the models beauty and my skills shooting it

                                xx

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  I disagree with those who are against using Photoshop to edit photos. When I read posts that like to see natural girls as they really are, I can't help but laugh. Really? Girls as they really are? Okay, let's look at it like this.....these girls are wearing makeup to hide their imperfections....they are wearing support top pantyhose to hide their imperfections....they are wearing pushup bras to hide their imperfections.....they are dying their hair to make them look better....they are wearing high heels to make their legs look better....they are posed in a certain way to hide their imperfections....and you don't want to use Photoshop to enhance their photos? Really? Give me a break! Girls/women are always doing whatever it takes to look better, so what's wrong with using Photoshop to help with this? I bet if you surveyed every model on this site, and asked them which picture they preferred....their natural picture, or a Photoshopped picture that made them look better, they would always select the picture that made them look better. What woman wants to look bad in a photo shoot?....none, so why not allow them to look good, even if you use Photoshop to do that?....even if that means to only add more color to the model's face?

                                  PhotoShop is designed to improve the overall look of a photo, so what's wrong with that? Would you rather see a bland picture of a model or a great picture of a model, if that great picture was created by using Photoshop? Myself, I'd prefer to see the great picture, no matter what was used to create it. I don't care if that great picture isn't exactly what the model looks like, I'll never meet the model, so who cares? I just want to see great pictures....period!

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Lol Dekoda it is VERRRYY evident that you don't look at any of the shoots. The girls at AW don't wear any makeup, don't wear any pantyhose, pushup bras are not allowed in shoots, they have natural hair colors (even if some may dye it, it looks natural), and models don't wear any shoes at all in shoots. AW is very focused on natural girls presented in natural ways. Therefore, for this particular site, photoshop WOULD make a huge difference because it would be the ONLY non-natural way that girls are presented here.

                                    I'm not against a tiny bit of photoshop for small things that would otherwise ruin a shoot, but I also think it's unfair to assume that the girls are already not shown as they are, or to suggest that if we photoshop it changes nothing. It definitely does change something, the presentation and way people view women in today's society. And me personally, I rather like that AW embraces women's imperfections--it empowers women to feel confident about their bodies instead of shaming them or pressuring them to fit into the mold.

                                    Also, you said "what women would prefer a natural picture instead of a photoshopped one"--the answer is, a lot of women. There have been lots of celebrities lately that are bashing magazines for printing photoshopped photos of them without their permission--photos that you could argue are "better", but didn't represent the woman as she felt she really was. Believe it or not, confident women want to see THEMSELVES, because they are happy with their natural looks and don't feel the need to be artificially improved. Myself, I would much prefer a natural photo and would be highly offended if a photo of me was photoshopped to look "better", unless it was simply changing a tiny flaw in the picture.

                                    You mention that you don't care because you will "never meet the model", but the whole purpose of this site is to let members try to get to know the models. Models are presented as they really are, without alteration, to educate people on what women are REALLY like and to see what makes each model unique. Without this, AW would be just like any other porn site and would miss this special quality that attracts so many members. To say that you don't care is to reject the whole idea of the site.

                                    I also don't think you really have a say about what type of pictures you would like to see or if you want to see "great pictures" or not, since you've mentioned several times you don't even look at the shoots on this site.

                                    Edit: I don't care if someone would like the pictures to be photoshopped, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it's the reasons WHY that you gave that offend me.
                                    Last edited by Jada; 12 December 2014, 11:26 PM.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      When doing a shoot I'm not busy trying to look as good as possible. Who would when you are busy having sex with a beautiful woman? In everyday life I only use a little mascara, just like in the shoots. I wear my own clothes on the shoots.. it's all me! I find more confidence in seeing pictures of my 100% natural self that look good. Photo shop can make anyone look good, so that doesn't mean anything to me. Who knows what people will make me look like If I would get seriously photoshopped? Would I really recognize myself? Or would it feel like a different person?

                                      Anyway it would take the fun out of it for me. But I'm not taking about blurring a bright red pimple that would otherwise cause the whole shoot to be rescheduled, that would be fine by me. But I love to see the real women on this site. Women that you could actually meet.. that could actually be available and you could actually have real encounters with. It's so much better than those fake, perfect, unobtainable women that would never become reality anyway. I am a real person and I want to see real people Xxx Noa

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Some really terrific responses from models and staff alike.

                                        As for me I agree to a certain extent. The professional models on other sites are made up to look a million dollars and as a result all look identically "plastic", which in the end becomes boring. There are models on AW who obviously would not be accepted by these other sites, which is their loss and our gain as members here. Part of the attraction of AW is that the models are (mostly) just ordinary women who come in all shapes and sizes, all with differing personalities and all with their own stories to tell. Some are incredibly beautiful, some are not, but all are natural, attractive and interesting in their own way. So, for me at least, photoshop only if absolutely necessary.

                                        One point I do differ on is just what is assumed to be "natural". I can see no problem if a model has dyed her hair or if she wears a little lipstick, if that makes her more comfortable. Nor can I see why a model cannot wear lingerie (including push-up bras), pantyhose, high heel shoes, etc, at the start of a shoot, if these are what she would naturally wear in day to day life. It was Jada who mentioned on another thread:

                                        I think that sometimes there is too much focus on the girls being "wholesome" and "pure", when the focus should be more on "natural" and all that entails--including tattoos and piercings, some models being more crude and some more timid, etc.
                                        Perhaps in the end it is the "wholesome and pure" philosophy that has become confused with "natural" and that in striving to maintain this philosophy the rules have gone just a little too far?

                                        PS I noticed that there have been only 23 responses to the poll - a small percentage of membership. Would it be better to place polls directly on the homepage, if this is possible. Perhaps this would elicit a higher vote?
                                        Last edited by boomertoo; 13 December 2014, 03:52 AM.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          There's a problem with saying Photoshop is OK for a horrible red pimple or something exceptional like that. Masie hit the nail on the head. (Smart girl, that Masie.) She said:

                                          "If we start to muddy the waters with exceptions to our own rules where does it stop - you are adding in an element of grey. What is to stop a creative decision creeping in to just try this one thing for effect reasons and variety this one time and then before you know it we are miles away from the starting line or worse having some models with one finish and some with another both of which I think are dangerous and misleading."

                                          The problem is that "just a little bit, and only of it's really essential" very quickly becomes "Whenever we (the management) think it will make the shoot better". For example, by Photoshopping out tattoos. Or scars. Or bruises. Or anything that someone thinks makes the model look less wholesome, girl next door.

                                          It really has to be none at all, or it will very soon become a lot.
                                          Last edited by JacksonP49; 13 December 2014, 07:15 AM.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Thanks Jackson I am pretty smart

                                            Dekoda I can only echo what Jada said - we don't have make up, special clothing, or complex hair styling to 'better' the ladies we work with, we just want to celebrate real woman, I think thats a safer term than 'natural woman'. Looking at our place within the world in general I am really proud to be part of that smaller voice that shows real every day woman as they are.

                                            For fear of playing my woman card, how often do I get look at real untouched up woman on TV, in Films, In Magazines. Now I like emercing myself fully into the fantasy of what I am watching so in most of the examples I stated I like the heavy make up, soft stylization look but I do need that reminder that these things are pretend so that when I look in the mirror I don't panic and as confident as I may come across I do panic, heck I think most people do, so I think we have duty of care to the world to keep our little candel of real alive so that other woman can look in and see that people enjoy the beauty in the simplicity of real - woman who look like them are seen as stunning by thousands at abbywinters so its ok to look like a real woman rather than a photshopped goddess of perfection.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Photoshop for the purpose stated in the first post is almost the same as make-up just applied in post-production. Given that I'd prefer to go with (very little) make-up, at least everybody involved in the shoot will be aware of that. Make-up works in video too

                                              For some reason photoshop feels more like cheating compared to make-up... I'm weird like that I guess

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Jada View Post
                                                Lol Dekoda it is VERRRYY evident that you don't look at any of the shoots. The girls at AW don't wear any makeup, don't wear any pantyhose, pushup bras are not allowed in shoots, they have natural hair colors (even if some may dye it, it looks natural), and models don't wear any shoes at all in shoots. AW is very focused on natural girls presented in natural ways. Therefore, for this particular site, photoshop WOULD make a huge difference because it would be the ONLY non-natural way that girls are presented here.

                                                I'm not against a tiny bit of photoshop for small things that would otherwise ruin a shoot, but I also think it's unfair to assume that the girls are already not shown as they are, or to suggest that if we photoshop it changes nothing. It definitely does change something, the presentation and way people view women in today's society. And me personally, I rather like that AW embraces women's imperfections--it empowers women to feel confident about their bodies instead of shaming them or pressuring them to fit into the mold.

                                                Also, you said "what women would prefer a natural picture instead of a photoshopped one"--the answer is, a lot of women. There have been lots of celebrities lately that are bashing magazines for printing photoshopped photos of them without their permission--photos that you could argue are "better", but didn't represent the woman as she felt she really was. Believe it or not, confident women want to see THEMSELVES, because they are happy with their natural looks and don't feel the need to be artificially improved. Myself, I would much prefer a natural photo and would be highly offended if a photo of me was photoshopped to look "better", unless it was simply changing a tiny flaw in the picture.

                                                You mention that you don't care because you will "never meet the model", but the whole purpose of this site is to let members try to get to know the models. Models are presented as they really are, without alteration, to educate people on what women are REALLY like and to see what makes each model unique. Without this, AW would be just like any other porn site and would miss this special quality that attracts so many members. To say that you don't care is to reject the whole idea of the site.

                                                I also don't think you really have a say about what type of pictures you would like to see or if you want to see "great pictures" or not, since you've mentioned several times you don't even look at the shoots on this site.

                                                Edit: I don't care if someone would like the pictures to be photoshopped, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it's the reasons WHY that you gave that offend me.
                                                You are right Jada, I don't look at the models photoshoots, but let me ask you, or any model here, a question.....When you go out on a Friday night, maybe night clubbing....maybe to a party, whatever, do you go out looking like you do in a photoshoot here, or do you wear makeup, support top pantyhose or regular pantyhose (to make your legs look better), high heels, whatever, to look your best to others, possibly guys?

                                                Okay, maybe you do and maybe you don't, but if you do, then why do you do these things to make yourself look better? If you want to look better when you go out, then why wouldn't you want to look better in the photoshoots? What's the difference? Going night clubbing or to a party, you might be seen by 25-50 people. Being on AW means you'll be seen by thousands of people....maybe millions, so I don't get why you'd want to look your best for 25-50 people, but not for thousands or millions of people?

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Because the whole point of doing shoots with AW is to show real women having real sex instead of "beautifull" women doing things that look nice. I like to contribute a little to changing the industry like that. I would like to be myself as much as possible if millions of people see me. The beauty lies in being real. Xx Noa

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    NO, NO, absolutely NO !!! It is precisely the special of Abbywinters that we see natural girls. Just as they really are.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Okay Im gonna splash my opinion here:

                                                      -I would say no to photoshop, but I would also say no to hypocrisy. Not using photoshop is pretty cool, in essence, but making it your trademark and at the same time cancelling/rescheduling shoots because of a pimple is hypocrisy to me.

                                                      -I'm glad there are still people left on this planet that want to see ''real women'' (Im putting the quotemarks because I have issues with the term ''real women'') the way they are, however, I think the girls in the AW shoots are '''real women'' as far as AW paradigm goes (I'm hiding my tattoos for example, or black clothes) which means no pimples or rashes, etc.

                                                      -The sad thing is that we are all brainwashed and that even I would be more secure to shoot without any pimples/rashes/bruses, and the level of comfort and self-confidence of the model really makes or breaks a shoot.

                                                      -I would say yes to photoshop under strict terms, for example, if otherwise a shoot would be cancelled. It would be easier for the company, less hassle with standby modeling etc, and best of all: no hypocrisy.

                                                      -I have a pimple on my butt right now

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        I understand and agree with the disdain for wholesale revamping of pictures to achieve some airbrushed ideal. However, in my opinion using Photoshop to remove the temporary imperfections Garion mentioned would not disqualify the "natural" status of the photographs.

                                                        --t

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          I think Yara has a point (or two). I would also like to point out that the colors in some shoots and/or images are a bit more vibrant than real life. Lips and pussies which are just a little pinker than real life, though it is usually hard to spot. It is easier to notice sometimes in the set dressing fabrics, a red or blue that is just too saturated to be natural. I am guessing this is due to camera settings and lighting, therefore keeping it out of the photoshop realm, but it still creates an image not found in reality, so is it really so different?

                                                          In my opinion, a little photoshopping would be best reserved for GGs. In a solo, as the girls have mentioned, you can shoot around a blemish. Just looking through my most recent solo and Masie did a fantastic job in my opinion, I love the photos! However, if you look at my solo with Yara, for instance, two shoots taken within probably 2 days of each other, there are some shots where just a click or two of blemish removal would make a world of difference to me. In GGs you have to have these super close up shots of your face, licking various body parts, which are quite harsh if you don't have flawless skin. Lets be honest though, how natural is it to see a girls face blown up to that size in such high resolution? How many of you have seen your girlfriends cheeks and chins with such up close clarity - and lets not forget how much light is on us! Plus, you've got two girls with different skin tones, and the photographer is having to balance that not to over or under expose either one. You're unlikely to get the best light level for your particular skin tone, would be nice if they can correct for this in photoshop later.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            I enjoy seeing "real women" blemishes and all. It has been one reason I continue to subscribe to this wonderful site. Not on topic I suppose but I like seeing women comfortable enough with their body hair wanting to be photographed. One of my favorite models is Harriot makes no attempt to hide her multitude of blemishes. (Not that she could possibly do it.

                                                            I would love seeing Yara's butt pimple!!!

                                                            Keep up your good work.

                                                            Comment

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