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    Well, I need to do some catching up here, too. Lots of interesting discussion going on.

    I posted this in the "Finland" but I thought it should be copied and posted here, too:
    Yet one more reason to admire the Finnish people. I was looking for a different article on the BBC World Service website and found this item highlighted:
    Finland's trailblazing path for women
    One hundred years ago, Finnish women became the first in the world to have unrestricted rights both to vote and to stand for parliament.
    Once again, three cheers for Finland!!!

    Comment


      TowelBoy has posted this in the Finland thread and I thought it should be repeated here as well:
      Originally posted by TowelBoy
      Matchless ... Unfortunately, this article is somewhat incorrect.

      Originally posted by Wikipedia Women's Suffrage Article
      The first European country to introduce women's suffrage was Finland, where women
      were granted the right both to vote (universal and equal suffrage) and to stand for election in 1906.
      Note: the qualification " European country ".
      Originally posted by Wikipedia Women's Suffrage Article
      The first to grant universal suffrage and allow women to stand for parliament was South Australia, in 1894.
      Note: Women in NZ could vote in 1893 .. but not stand for parliament.
      Also, the six Colonies including South Australia became States on 1 January 1901,
      When they federated to become the Commonwealth of Australia.
      From that point ... Australian Men and Women could also vote at Federal Elections.

      For the full Wikipedia Women's Suffrage Article ... Please Look Here

      TowelBoy

      Comment


        Feminist,equality,Christianity;all variations on the same old theme
        Those with the power will keep it,all others will continue to scream

        Power isn't money or knowledge;or something you can hold in your hand
        Power is in building and keeping,that makes the difference in MAN

        Comment


          Because here are the other posts from Finland thread about women's right to vote, I'll post my reply too.

          Yes, it's a bit controversial. It depends what one likes to emphasize, but it's safe to say that Finland was among the first.

          Quote:
          1893 - New Zealand gives women right to vote but not to stand for election
          1902 - Australia grants women, except Aborigines, right to vote in federal and national elections. Women given right to vote in all state elections by 1908
          1906 - Finland gives women unrestricted rights both to vote and to stand for election
          Aborigins were given right to vote in 1962.

          yusa
          Last edited by yusanord; 4 June 2006, 06:38 PM.

          Comment


            Originally posted by DANTEXIV
            Feminist,equality,Christianity;all variations on the same old theme
            Those with the power will keep it,all others will continue to scream

            Power isn't money or knowledge;or something you can hold in your hand
            Power is in building and keeping,that makes the difference in MAN
            Nice Dante! The question is at what cost??? How important is holding on to "power" and what are you willing to do to keep it?
            The answer that many give to that question is what causes so many people to scream. And therein is the problem.

            See, I tend to think power is like money in a sense. One day you have it, the next day you don't. No matter how much you try to hold on to it, it will eventually slip right through your fingers no matter how tightly you try to wrap a fist around it. Look at Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, Pol Pot, etc.... Everything dies! Power, money and yes, people. The only thing one has that isn'[t necessarily doomed to die is ones name [reputation].

            If you live a life of falsehood, treachery and callousness, then that is what you will ultimately be remembered for. Yea, people will struggle to find nice things to say at your funeral, but those who hold their tongues will be able to decipher what is bullshit and what is real. The only part of you that remains, truly, is the name you've left. Shallow people can admire you for building an empire and having the "guts" to do so on the backs of so many screaming people. If amassing money and power is all that matters to you [and I don't mean you personally] then you can measure your life by that yardstick and be happy. However, if being honest in your dealings with your fellow man and seeing the whole truth is important to you, then your name will be something that your children can be proud of for generations. Ultimately, each person has to look at himself in the mirror. What each person sees can be clouded in denial and falsehood or a clear reflection. Therein is where the cost is apparent and it's up to each person to decide how much he/she is willing to pay.

            Will I be a liar and spread falsehood, or will I outline my life with a sense of balance???

            It takes guts to put an end to the screaming one causes and put the scales back into balance. Sadly, most people opt for the alternative.

            Comment


              I think Ava made an excellent point about sex and power in another thread.
              She noted that when women take money to have sex with men, they hold power over the men.
              And look what happens, men stigmatize it by calling it a bad name (prostitution), and make it illegal.

              Comment


                Originally posted by DANTEXIV
                Feminist,equality,Christianity;all variations on the same old theme
                Those with the power will keep it,...
                When women or men or Christians or Buddhists or Saints or Sinners...
                claim to be superior to everyone else we all have a problem. I worked in an agency run by women. I was 1 of 2 men amongst 78 women. We were all different but all equal.

                When we acknowedge our differences and fight for everyones right to respect, equal, and fair treatment we all are winners.
                Last edited by geoman; 5 June 2006, 01:42 AM.

                Comment


                  Out Numbered

                  Originally posted by geoman
                  When women or men or Christians or Buddhists or Saints or Sinners...
                  claim to be superior to everyone else we all have a problem. I worked in an agency run by women. I was 1 of 2 men amongst 78 women.

                  Geoman:

                  You bring up an interesting idea for me. Is there a noticeable difference in working for a woman as opposed to working for a man? Please note that I ask this question cautiously since the responses could easily go either way and I hope this discussion doesn't suddenly go upside-down.

                  I ask this question of both sexes as it has been posited before here in the states. Most men say they would much prefer to work for a man than a woman. Moreover, and quite interestingly, many women had the same preference. The smallest group of respondants said they had no preference.

                  I worked in a corporation years ago in which ALL of the top management was made up of women. Yes, they were all feministas and I did notice many differences from other jobs I'd had where my supervisors were men. However, I'm not sure if the experiences there were do to the fact that the management was all female or because they were all feminists. What did you think?

                  Comment


                    This is one thread where you can't just go to, post a reply, and move on. (At least I can't). I always have to go away, think about it and come back, which I'm going to do.

                    There is one small suggestion I've been meaning to make. I believe this thread is not in the right forum. It probably should be in the "Good Things and Bad Things" forum, or at least in the Mundane Chatter forum.

                    Later daze,
                    Alleyes

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Cruiser9
                      You bring up an interesting idea for me. Is there a noticeable difference in working for a woman as opposed to working for a man? ....
                      There was a difference. The women all outclassed me in their skill at dealing directly to each other. Men tended to have to have some excuese to relate. For example, women got together to talk and men to have coffee.
                      Women were more vulnerable to emotional appeal but the men tended to be more rational and pragmatic. My supervion by a female was a very positive and a growing experience. When I was supervised by a man It was hell. He micro-managed everything and was completely out manoevered by the women around him.
                      The bigest difference was in me and how I related to them. I was raised in a home where my mother was clearly in charge. A Man in charge felt strange. Lesbians were the best as sex was a non-issue.
                      My point is that male or female, we were all equal despite working differently.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by yusanord
                        Aborigins were given right to vote in 1962.
                        True for the National(Commonwealth) vote but some aborigines had voted in a few States since colonial times.

                        http://www.aec.gov.au/_content/when/history/ab_vote.htm
                        The Menzies Liberal and Country Party government gave the Commonwealth vote to all Aborigines in 1962.
                        But
                        Legally their rights go back to colonial times. When Victoria, New South Wales, Tasmania and South Australia framed their constitutions in the 1850s they gave voting rights to all male British subjects over 21, which of course included Aboriginal men. Only Queensland and Western Australia barred Aborigines from voting.
                        When woman were granted the right to vote in national elections in 1902, the Constitution should have allowed aborigines to vote in Federal elections if they had voted in their State. This was not finally resolved in the aborigines favour until 1949 by the Chifley Labor government . So some Aboriginals who voted in their state could also vote federally before 1962.
                        And in 1894 when South Australia gave women the right to vote and sit in Parliament, Aboriginal women shared the right. Only Queensland and Western Australia barred Aborigines from voting.
                        Although they had the right it seems few Aboriginal women knew so very few voted.

                        Oh and I don't dispute Finland was one of the first to grant women's right to vote.

                        Comment


                          I've had jobs all over the place. I've worked in a hairdressers, a supermarket, a US merchant bank, in night clubs, restaurants, realestate agents, fruit farms, and trail riding and tourist companies, and of course in the adult industry. I've probably had an equal amount of male and female bosses. I couldn't say whether I prefer a man or woman to be my boss because it depends on the person not on the gender.

                          Comment


                            Damn Liandra what a resume you must have, ok young lady where is your job stability?

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by stoneyyy
                              Damn Liandra what a resume you must have, ok young lady where is your job stability?

                              Comment


                                The stability is that she always finds a way to support herself, no handouts for our Liandra. I'm always impressed by young women (and men) who manage to get by despite the iffy job environment and the difficulty of getting jobs one really likes that are steady -- especially while working one's way through uni AND with a young daughter. If she keeps on seeking eventually she'll land the right job.

                                The fact that she's wonderfully pretty should have nothing to do with her job prospects, but it certainly delights me.

                                Comment


                                  I caught this rant from this website: progressiveboink.com rating lesbians Just wanted to know what you all thought of it in light of this discussion.

                                  Emily: You know what? I'm sick of this shit. Over the last year we've reviewed several dozen of these lesbian scenes. Some were ratings grabbers, like the one above. Some were of legitimate importance to their film/show, and some were just awkward attempts to shock. But I can't just continue to participate in these posts without feeling like I'm part of the problem. Women have been struggling for decades to break free of the social constructs dictated to them by a patriarchal society that expects them to exist as either sex objects or sexless and voiceless automatons who exist to make the male life more simple. This trend of faux lesbianism in film and television is just the newest example. A man looks at lesbianism and sees a way for a woman to break free of the sexual confinements his gender has imposed upon womankind. For a woman to find sexual fulfillment and completion without the benefit of a man, she gets to both own her own femininity and express her sexuality without fear of reproachment. So what is the reaction of society? To make lesbianism HOT. Yeah, who doesn't want to see chicks making out, that's sexy. And heterosexual women go along with it in order to please the demands of a male-dominated culture. Lesbianism isn't genetic, and it isn't a lifestyle choice, it's just one more way to reign in female sexuality. By turning the gaze onto an act that's not male inclusive.

                                  And I? I've been betraying my gender by going along with it. I won't pretend I don't suddenly enjoy some of the scenes we've reviewed, but by not standing up and saying, "you know what guys? We're being fairly exploitative here," I've made myself a willing participant. I'm holding women back. Me. Because by going along with these posts, and certainly enjoying writing them, I'm not better than a man who tries to compartmentalize a woman's sexuality into what he can understand and find pleasure in. It's not fair, and it should stop.

                                  So lets look at some guys making out.
                                  I have a lot to say on the subject but I think I'm a little too irritated right now and whatever I say will come off as extremely bitter.
                                  But to respond to an earlier post by Gracie W; Jesus didn't seem to have a problem with women. He died for us too.
                                  Christian feminist... try being a christian lesbian.
                                  As far as this christian is concerned, it all boils down to the shitty way we treat each other. And we may not realize how we've messed up until we end up destroying each other.
                                  Last edited by smjack; 6 June 2006, 12:51 AM.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by arsby
                                    The stability is that she always finds a way to support herself,
                                    Yeah your job stability is in your ability. No matter how many jobs you've had. If your capable, you'll get work or customers.

                                    Comment


                                      Smjack:

                                      I too have lots to say about the "rant" you posted. But I've ruffled enough feathers for one day. In any case, the person who posted the quote you've shared with us appears to be one very angry person. In my experience, you can't really have a rational discussion with some while they're that angry. Interesting stuff tho.

                                      Comment


                                        Everyone wants something they don't have,or that really doesn't exist
                                        When they can't have life their way,they generally seem to get pissed

                                        The left and the rights disagree ;and gays and straights never see
                                        That the ends of a matters never meet,and that's the way it should be


                                        To see things you way,or to make mine the rule
                                        will make me uncomfortable, or prove you the fool


                                        Still many will continue to cling;
                                        to agenda's of the same old thing


                                        of the current media mythology
                                        for the false illusion of equality

                                        Comment


                                          So Dante:

                                          Are you saying that equality is unattainable? Is it your position that equality is contrary to the natural order of life??

                                          I agree that there will always be haves and have nots. But does that mean people shouldn't strive to work for balance?

                                          Your nice little poem seems to imply that it is pointless to scream, as it were, since inequality will always exist. Am I reading you wrong?

                                          Comment


                                            Actually, I would agree with Dante. Equality is an illusion.
                                            In fact, in terms of human potential; equality is a shabby goal.
                                            People should strive to be the best they can be; and if this end is achieved, we would surpass anything we've seen in human history. We would surpass equality.

                                            This happens when we realize that there is no such thing as equality. That everyone is unique, that when we look deep enough, everyone has their own distinct path. It's almost as if equality is a logical fallacy and has no place in the realm of human existence.

                                            The injustice comes when others seek to stop anyone from reaching their potential. The sad part about it, it all stems from fear.
                                            That I can't touch the sky if you've already done it. That we can't be the best without being better than someone else. That when you become more, I become less.
                                            These are all erroneous ideas in a "survival of the fittest" mindset.
                                            Is domination/oppression really necessary to sustain power? Is the power we seek (over others) actually apart of a bigger illusion?

                                            And you ask, what the hell does this have to do with feminism...
                                            The wise oppressor realizes that they can not take anyone's freedom away. Freedom has to be given away.
                                            Women have been manipulated into giving their freedom away. We have been deceived into thinking that we can never reach our potential if it interferes with the rise of man. Even worse, we are led to believe that our potential IS to serve man.

                                            And now for something completely different.
                                            Here's where I go off the deep end, you may want to stop reading now.

                                            Our true potential is to serve man. Mankind that is. This is the goal of all, regardless of gender or whatever else. In reaching our full potential, we naturally use our talents to help others. A sort of byproduct of enlightenment.
                                            Point being, when others oppress, they end up oppressing themselves. When you snuff out the light (of another) you are left in the dark.

                                            Comment


                                              I'm getting ready to go to bed, and all I really want to say at this point is, please nobody get this thread closed. I'll post here later "tomorrow" some thoughts I've been "thinking".

                                              Alleyes

                                              Comment


                                                Originally posted by arsby
                                                The stability is that she always finds a way to support herself, no handouts for our Liandra.
                                                I think if your husband has left you and isn't contributing you should get asistance from the state wether your working or not. The state can then seek compensation from the father through his tax code or hold him liable for the debt in the usual way. I can't see why that can't apply internationally.

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by blissed
                                                  I think if your husband has left you and isn't contributing you should get asistance from the state wether your working or not. The state can then seek compensation from the father through his tax code or hold him liable for the debt in the usual way. I can't see why that can't apply internationally.
                                                  Best to know both sides of the issue before offering to help one or the other. I'm in no way suggesting that anyone offer any personal information here you understand. Friends are nice to have, but you can't be sure you backing the right horse unless you see the quarter on its edge. If he left her, there was a reason for sure. You gotta know his version before making any suggestions that would be worthwhile.

                                                  That's just my vote!

                                                  Comment


                                                    Yes i consider myself a feminist. i remember watching an oprah (yes i know terrible) episode on this issue they were talking about girls gone wild the series in america that has girls flashing their tits etc - not for money just for the heck of it. when they were grilling one such girl she said - its my choice i do it because i choose to not because anyone forces me to - meanwhile oprah and the rest of her panel said thats bull you dont choose it society tells you thats how you should act and so you do.

                                                    i dont agree with that - i do this because i choose to, anyways to me feminism is about an array of issues completely separate from sexual choices.

                                                    an awesome book came out last year by Virginia Haussegger - Wonder Woman: The Myth of Having it all. it goes over all the issues women are faced with today - work, family the struggle to have it all. while i didnt agree with everything in this book its a really good look at australian women and our embarrassment about being feminists.

                                                    Comment


                                                      I haven't had time to read everything in this thread, but one thing's for sure - it's a very complicated issue. I agree with the point made that wanting equal opportunity for women is not simply feminism, it's humanism because women are human beings too (although even that wasn't accepted til relatively recently!!) But I also believe that women and men are programmed for different things and that men will tend to do some things better than women and vice versa (there are some very interesting books by Steven Pinker - 'The Blank Slate' and 'How the Mind Works' which examine this issue). I don't think this is necessarily a problem, whether its partly biological or totally cultural or whatever, because there will always be people who don't fit the stereotype, and as long as they can have equal opportunity for fulfilment then that's the important thing.

                                                      I don't know if I would call myself a feminist. I feel uncomfortable with the stereotype that's around the word. But I do believe that men and women are equally capable of most things.

                                                      Comment


                                                        I'm a feminist. Feminism has helped me a great deal with overcoming a lack of self-esteem and a negative body image and just made me feel much more in control and empowered.

                                                        There's definitely a negative stereotype around the word as emmar says, and that has to do with some whacko feminists coming out and saying stupid things and also people labelling it a certain way in order to attack and ridicule it.

                                                        Feminism is what you make it. For me it's about feeling empowered and in control of my own body, and fighting for equality with men. Men aren't the enemy, but this is largely a man's world and I reckon we all need to work together to make it fairer. There is still a great deal of inequality in the Western world (America and Australia included) and even more in the third world so until that stops, I'll be a feminist.

                                                        -b

                                                        Comment


                                                          I support equal rights and opportunities for for both men and women. But I do not support the denial of reality in terms of the very real biological and psychological differences between men and women.

                                                          Comment


                                                            Feminism = female capitalism + female sexism.

                                                            It is just as one-dimensional and bigoted an ideology as nationalism and has nothing to do with social equality.

                                                            Upwardly mobile middle-class professional feminists are forever complaining about the 'glass ceiling' that means there are fewer female, than male, company directors, as if having more female and less male fat-cats is going to make the world a more egalitarian place. Sorry, but it won't.

                                                            Visit any city you like in the 'developed' world and there far more men than women homeless and living rough. I've yet to hear any feminist complaining about the 'glass flooring' at the bottom which affords women preferential treatment when it comes to the allocation of local authority housing.

                                                            One of the great successes of feminism has been the emasculation of the male parental role which means that lot of boys are now growing up without a paternal role model and consequently lack self-esteem and consistently under-achieve at school. This also extends to professions such as teaching, from which men are being increasingly excluded.

                                                            I come from a working-class background and bettered myself through higher education. What I encountered at university was a lot of private-school educated females, who'd never done a day's proper work in their lives, complaining how 'oppressed' they were by men - yeah right.

                                                            Comment


                                                              Originally posted by peepingpom View Post
                                                              One of the great successes of feminism has been the emasculation of the male parental role which means that lot of boys are now growing up without a paternal role model and consequently lack self-esteem and consistently under-achieve at school.
                                                              What is the male parental role according to you? (I didn't even know there was one.)

                                                              Comment

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