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    The F word

    Thats right, its time to talk about Feminism.

    For ages now feminism has been unpopular in girls our age because of the stigma attached; being a hairy pitted stinky dyke with more bisep strength than sexual appeal. Do you consider yourself a feminist? What do you think feminism has to offer women of today when women are allowed to vote, work and essentially follow a career path? Do you think women have achieved everything there is to achieve for equality?

    What about pornography? Or stripping? Or prostitution? Are these an example of women being used by a chauvenist system, or are they using male desire to their own advantage? Is that then empowerment?

    Hehe I know thats a lot of questions but I think its about time we discussed it! Whats your opinion on the F word?

    #2
    I'm all for it and yet I feel if that is true I shouldn't approve of what i am doing here ...

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      #3
      Originally posted by gracie_w
      For ages now feminism has been unpopular in girls our age because of the stigma attached; being a hairy pitted stinky dyke with more bisep strength than sexual appeal.
      That seems to be what the likes of Larry Flynt would have us believe.
      Surely feminism is really about power, who has it and who doesn't in all aspects of life -- including the home, street, workplace and politics. It's about choice and self determination.

      Boy I could write an essay here but I have to be up early so I'll see what other responses are received tomorrow.

      Timbit

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        #4
        Thats exactly the contradiction I was curious about. Because I very much consider myself a feminist, but then I'm a model and a dancer, so isn't that selling myself out? I'm sure that some people would feel that it was, but I don't. I kind of think to be a feminist you can just consider things, or question them...but there's no reason why, whilst questioning a system, you can't turn around and work it.

        Just my two cents, anyway...

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          #5
          Originally posted by gracie_w
          Because I very much consider myself a feminist, but then I'm a model and a dancer, so isn't that selling myself out?
          Quite the opposite. You exert control over your body by deciding when to show it off, whom to show it off, and what to do while showing it off. Thereby, you're empowering yourself. That's feminism.

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            #6
            But some people would say it isn't...some people would say that I'm being used for male entertainment, and that I am essentially objectifying myself. Whether or not I choose to do it is sort of irrelevent, it's that I am cooperating in the fetishism of the female body.

            (Not that I agree with any of that, but that's how the argument goes. Playing the devils advocate, I guess you'd call it).

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              #7
              Feminism is something of a minefield because it is a vague term that covers a broad range of frequently conflicting opinions. Personally any brand of feminism that doesn't have "Choice" written in big letters on it's cornerstone, keystone and every last brick in between is not worth a damn. Choice means being able to get your kit off if you want to just as much as it means not being forced to parade yourself for male titillation if you don't want to.
              Last edited by willow; 2 February 2006, 05:19 AM.

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                #8
                I'm forming the opinion (I say that so I don't sound opinionated )
                That feminism is about attaining mutual respect for people no matter what sex they are.

                Then there are the tricky practicalities
                Who does the full time early parenting and is that seriously undervalued.
                Who gets to further their career ambitions ,
                I don't think you should have to make the choice and some people like Liandra seem to be able to do both anyway. (I know that's with other peoples support but I think when most parents are given help it's gladly offered.)


                Who controls the money
                Who does the housework (who cleans the toilet)
                who cooks
                My parents sorted those things out between them amicably, my dad did some housework and my mum is the banker.So all those things are sorted by mutual respect as well.

                Do you enjoy and make the most of being beautiful. Your sex drive is a separate entity because our sexual desires are usually non-PC and are there to turn us on not usually to inform us about how we live our lives. So you can then indulge your desires for masochism or exhibitionism without being thought any less of.
                and thats my little essay.
                Last edited by blissed; 2 February 2006, 05:30 AM.

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                  #9
                  A friend of mine pointed something out to me once that I've always remembered.

                  Demanding equality of the sexes isn't feminism. It's humanism. All women are wanting and expecting is for all genders to be accepted at the same level as each other, and not that they are expecting any special treatment to make up for the crap they've been getting in the past.

                  Anybody should be allowed to do anything they want to do at any time, as long as it does not harm anyone or anything. I've always thought that seemed such a simple principle, but people tend to make it far more complicated.

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                    #10
                    I dont care who brings me a cupa
                    Just as long as its got 4 sugars in it

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                      #11
                      I believe in the women's movement...I hate it when they just lie there.
                      (Lenny Henry)

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                        #12
                        what annoys me with feminists is that they (not all though) can be hippocrites. They want equal rights when it suits them but when it will inconvenience them the men have to take the brunt. Im all for equal rights but fairs fair you cant have part time equality.

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                          #13
                          I agree, I think feminism should be about choice, and women having the right to choose what happens with their bodies. Is anyone here particularily religious, eg. Christian? Is it possible to be a religious feminist, or do those things not go together? (I'm thinking here of right to lifers and 'family values' and such). I don't think I've ever met a christian feminist, but if I did I'd love to sit them down and pick their brains for a while...

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                            #14
                            Since, as willow points out, feminism is a vague term, I'd like to focus on the question in Gracie's second post:
                            Originally posted by gracie_w
                            isn't that selling myself out?
                            I agree with Tex that for Gracie it seems to be the opposite. But other women wouldn't be so severe with her if that were the whole picture. They seem to feel that Gracies actions affect them, too. Which could be true. E.g. some men might be misguided into expecting that all women are always ready to do anything for money. I personally don't think that such jerks would really change their mind even if there were no strippers in this world, but I see how someone could disagree with me there.
                            Last edited by Paniscus; 2 February 2006, 11:09 AM. Reason: forgotten word

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                              #15
                              As a Buddhist I know one of the five major precepts is to respect the beauty of eroticism and not have sexual misconduct. That's pretty much all that's mentioned.

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                                #16
                                Well I guess it is the first generation of payback for the past treatment and status of women in relationships/society. We had articles that describe how to please a man when he comes home from work and black and white commercials on women cooking and cleaning as an expected role, flogging products. Now, watch any sitcom, movie or commercial and the man is (most) always viewed as the buffoon or saying/doing something wrong. The woman is now rarely viewed in this light, it would be taboo.

                                RT...

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                                  #17
                                  Feminism hmmm whats that...

                                  Oh yes that when she is in the lounge room because you forgot to shorten the chain

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                                    #18
                                    stoneyyy, the forum mods ought to give you a custom moniker... "Can't Find Reality"

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                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Diablo
                                      stoneyyy, the forum mods ought to give you a custom moniker... "Can't Find Reality"
                                      Yeah i hate reality...

                                      and shussh about the forum mods i been flying under the radar for a while, don't bring me to there attention, don't want anymore sob storys

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                                        #20
                                        Ever feel like the women who have been best served my feminism are the ones who can say "screw feminism, I know what's right?" I feel sorry for people who get stuck in old, traditional ideas of how they should live thier lives, but you can get just as stuck in new, non-traditional ones. It always makes me sad when people set out to question ideas they've been brought up with, but only end up with a new set of ideas they're still afraid to question.

                                        Originally posted by gracie_w
                                        Because I very much consider myself a feminist, but then I'm a model and a dancer, so isn't that selling myself out?
                                        That's the contradiction that bugs me the most, too. (In a lot of philosophies.) You can't encourage people to make their own decisions, then tell them they're making the wrong ones. I think a lot of intellectual leaders who encourage people to think for themselves can be naive about what that process entails, and end up 'indoctrinating' without even realizing it. (Then there are some who just can't accept that rational, free-thinking people might reach conclusions different thatn their own, but that's a whole other conversation.) Feeling free to stand by your own judgements takes a lot more than good advice.

                                        Valerie, now I'm curious: How does Buddhism traditionally define sexual misconduct?

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                                          #21
                                          Perhaps I should make a more useful contribution to this thread..

                                          From what I've learnt, feminism covers a huge spectrum of views and attitudes; you could probably classify each sub-movement based on things like short-term, long-term and idealistic goals, scope (social, political, economic), influences and so on.

                                          I'm a respect-driven person; I strive to treat people with the same level of respect that I would expect to receive in return - equally applied regardless of gender, race, etc. That would position my ideology more towards humanism. However the majority of my observed imbalances are from personal experiences regarding discrimination against women by men. For instance:
                                          • Spending 6+ years studying a computer engineering based degree at uni, where men:women ratio is typically 10:1. It becomes apparent why the academic computing environment is hostile towards female students... Hardly any "women in engineering" support networks in place, not to mention social demeanor of the average 18-20yo male computing undergraduate, with regards to female peers, is disappointing.
                                          • Close female friends who personally bore the brunt of undesirable testosterone-fuelled behaviour from certain men in their lives.
                                          • A strong dislike for mainstream sleaze-filled porn; don't know how I've arrived at that, but I've always hated it.

                                          You could say that these inferences reposition my views towards feminism. However the type of feminism I'd subscribe to is how I feel these problems should be addressed...
                                          • ...strictly through civil and legal reform (liberal feminism)
                                          • ...through removal of male-oriented social structures (equity feminism)
                                          • ...complete abolition of gender roles (gender feminism)
                                          • ...acknowledging that feminine values should be more recognised and celebrated (cultural feminism)
                                          • ...complete assault on male-driven oppression (radical feminism)
                                          Where I sit in the feminism ideoligcal spectrum varies, as I personally feel each individual problem is best solved by a blend of approaches. Two examples:
                                          • I think AW.com provides an excellent affront against mainstream porn values, by instead celebrating the beauty and individuality of young women (cultural feminism).
                                          • With the case of men ogling women (as mentioned in that "What do you do to feel sexy..." thread), that's probably better addressed by bringing the offending men into line, discouraging their behaviour and socially isolating those who still continue to do it (radical feminism).


                                          Edit: I can see where the essay writing comes into it. After re-reading my entire post, I realise I've only just managed to answer the first of Gracie's questions!

                                          Edit edit: Might as well offer a short version for those of you with eyestrain... I'm a feminist (and not afraid to be effeminate if I feel like it)
                                          Last edited by Diablo; 2 February 2006, 05:11 PM.

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by gracie_w
                                            Thats exactly the contradiction I was curious about. Because I very much consider myself a feminist, but then I'm a model and a dancer, so isn't that selling myself out? I'm sure that some people would feel that it was, but I don't. I kind of think to be a feminist you can just consider things, or question them...but there's no reason why, whilst questioning a system, you can't turn around and work it.
                                            As for the selling out bit; the way I interpret it is that it'd be only be considered "selling out" if you've completely lost control/possession of what you're selling. If a musical artist sells the exclusive IP rights of their music to a record label, then obviously that's gone for good... but if a guy pays you to do a dance for him, you don't suddenly become ugly and arthritic when they walk away, right? (nor do they get to take you home and enslave you).

                                            I'd see it more as harnessing an endless (well, at least for some time!) resource of yours to meet a certain demand, with due compensation in return (as there's always risks involved in that particular field of work). As for how it flows with feminism, I'd agree with the others... as long as you're in control, and have an expectation to be respected as a person, then I see no contradiction.

                                            Out of interest, have you ever actually refused to dance for a patron (possibly refunding them in the process, or refusing to take their money)?

                                            Actually, coming to further thought of it... if you consider the priviledge of people looking at you nude or topless to have some value, then that's possibly an "item" that is effectively being irrevocably sold. However it depends on how you perceive the lasting value of that... considering that pretty much all the patrons you've danced for will most likely forget about you (or not care) in the long run.

                                            This essay brought to you by the rocks in Diablo's head. Luckily no trees actually died for this...

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Am I a feminist? Yes, of course.

                                              This can be a difficult question in a world where the backlash against feminism has worked overtime to make the word a 'dirty word' so to speak and to make the statement 'I'm not a feminist, but..." common.

                                              Of course, just as with any other broad social movement/social critique, there is a broad spectrum of views within feminism though they all share the underlying premise that, shock, horror, women should be treated equally socially (i.e. at home, work and play).

                                              Now, as for the porn/stripping/prostitution thing. Well, I don't think asking whether you are 'selling yourself out' is the right way of framing the question or discussion and it isn't the way even radical feminists I know would approach the issue. They would focus on porn/prostitution and stripping as industries, rather than on any individual woman working within them. I would think it would be counter productive for feminists to attack women in the sex-work industries because its hardly as if they built or control the industry as a whole.

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                                                #24
                                                I think I will let this pass. Can I fault a catholic for the major part of the dark-age or crusade(s). Also what is a feminist? As said is she a "humanist" wanting equal rights fairly, or a woman that hate what men have done to the world and want pay-back. I have to laugh at movies, and such when ever a woman is among the "good guys", it so they can hit/fight the bad female, whom is 90% there (LMAO).

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                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by hannibal8
                                                  Valerie, now I'm curious: How does Buddhism traditionally define sexual misconduct?
                                                  Well, things such as cheating, using sex against someone, raping...there's not a whole lot of details there. One of the main tenants of the religion is that "there are 10,000 paths" meaning there's no one right or wrong way of doing things. However, this precept is like a boundry line guiding you towards those 10,000, but the line's actual definition, well, that's up to your best judgement sometimes. But the philosophy also maintains that one should always take "the middle path" (i.e. don't go to any extremes) and this concept also colours the definition of 'sexual misconduct'.

                                                  So in my mind, modeling for Abby is fine. I'm totally respecting the beauty of eroticism and hubby and i thought about it and agreed that this is not sexual misconduct.

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                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by valerie
                                                    But the philosophy also maintains that one should always take "the middle path"......
                                                    Here I was for the last 3 months wondering where that saying came from thanks Val.

                                                    Personally I have always felt that I can do everything that I a guy can do, and unless it's proven otherwise guys, shouldn't treat me any differently, except for inviting me to join in the "How high can I pee up the wall" competitions.

                                                    hotdawgwife

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                                                      #27
                                                      Just a thought here, hopefully not an essay ! All of us who engage in a capitalist economy " sell " bits of ourselves in terms of exchanging our labour for money.I genuinely dont believe that any form of this exchange is intrinsically superior or inferior morally . As I said in my very first post to the web site I was delighted to discover Abby Winters because of the delight the models have in sharing their sexuality. In my opinion helping to rescue genuine, life enhancing Feminism from the clutches of narrow minded " ,we know whats best for you" ,Puritanism .

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Is it possible to be a religious feminist, or do those things not go together? (I'm thinking here of right to lifers and 'family values' and such). I don't think I've ever met a christian feminist, but if I did I'd love to sit them down and pick their brains for a while...
                                                        There are a few Christian feminists over here, just as there are Christians who recoil at the agenda of the so-called Religious Right. I do not see Christianity and feminism as incompatible. The aspects of feminism that appeal most to me are gender equity and an end to domination of the powerful over the powerless, which I think most any sensible person, regardless of faith (or lack of it) would favor.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Martyhulk
                                                          I believe in the women's movement...I hate it when they just lie there.
                                                          (Lenny Henry)
                                                          I like just lying there and doing nothing. Oh we talking about sex here or am i mistaken

                                                          Some days i would love to just stay at home and do the cleaning and do the washing and pick up after the kids and NOT have to come to work. Those days i dream about and no day it will hopefully happen to me. But damn i also love being independent and getting involved and getting my kit off. Us girls wouldnt be able to go on the website if it werent for the F movement!! True??

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                                                            #30
                                                            The fallacy of Feminism (capital F) is that it puts (or maybe allows it to be viewed as putting) the burden of accomplishing it on women. When it first emerged in it's modern, post-women's suffrage form back in the '60s it was most often called Women's Liberation. 1) It can't be just women's liberation. If men aren't liberated from the same idiotic notions it's like "freeing" slaves so they can be hunted down and lynched. That ain't freedom. 2) Liberation is only meaningful when it's the individual that's liberated - independent of gender, color, creed, or toilet training. All freedom ultimately resolves to the freedom of choice, all rights resolve to the right to be left alone. Unless or until these apply to every individual they don't mean what politicians want you to think they do. I agree with Vid Dude's friend and Diablo: The noble (as opposed to the more immediate political) goals of what's called "Feminism" are humanist, and result in individual respect - for all.

                                                            Gracie, as for selling out (another term from the '60s): If you felt that pornography and stripping were immoral or Bad Things and you betrayed your principals just for the money, that would be selling out; if these are things you choose to do for your own reasons it's not selling out. (I'm sure you know this and are taking a reality check on it here.) I see no conflict in the fact that doing these things can be liberating for some while not being required or expected to do them can be liberating for others. As for pornography, I can attest to it's powers of liberation. Until I found AW I never felt completely good about pornography or my fervid pursuit of it. But so many of the models here say it's a positive experience (and even if they don't use the term, what they're describing is clearly a form of liberation and growth) that the doubts don't haunt me here. So not only are models liberated but I myself am liberated from 40 years of guilt. This is NOT a trivial thing.

                                                            When Paniscus points out, correctly, about other women that "They seem to feel that Gracie's actions affect them, too" I find an answer to those women in something Eleanor Roosevelt said, "Nobody can humiliate you without your consent." Similarly I think the men he mentions would have to consciously choose to be so "misguided".

                                                            [Valerie, thank you for telling us that Buddhism doesn't condone cheating. The problem I've always had with the whole Free Love/Sex thing (again with the '60s schtick?!) was that it often seems to be invoked as a license (a licentious license) to betray someone's trust. To hear this from someone I respect so much really does my heart good!]

                                                            -L

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