Hi
Been exchanging emails with a member, thought I might post my most recent reply here, as it has some info some ppl might kie to know...
--------------
Hi
>My board name is *****. If i remember correctly, i did post a fe suggestions
>regarding your girl/girl shoots... You didn't seem to like them very much!
Ah, yes. Just had a re-read of your posts.
You have some good ideas, but like a lot of consumers, you do not have a realistic view of producing videos. It's easy for consumers to say "well, that's not my problem, you ask for ideas, and I am giving you ideas!", but I am not a magician, nor a particularly amazing video producer. So, as I replied to you in the thread, we need PRACTICAL ideas for shoots.
We have the tools, the models, the staff and the money to produce videos, but we're lacking PRACTICAL ideas.
I am not being a grumpy bitch for the sake of it, I am being realistic. I have been on probably hundreds of video shoots, and I know how they work, what the limitations of the models, gear, light and locations are.
I know you think I am being grumpy (you alluded to it several times in your last three emails!). I used to be JUST like you, before I started a site. Making constructive criticisms when I could, trying to get websites to make a better product. They seldom replied, and when they did, they said, "dude, you just don't GET it. Life isn't like that".
It took me three years of my life to find out why.
When you start making material for your site, you'll find similar obstacles. You'll end up selling out (at least partially) just as I and so many other have. Sometimes, you just have to compromise. It sucks, but it's life.
>img tag disable, use attachment mgr/system to add images to postshttp://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif I know it is difficult to accomodate members requests... Im sure you
>have got a lot of members, and im sure a lot of them have requests as well.
Yes, this is another problem - ideas posted by yourself and others centre around specific fetishes that plenty of people find off-putting (menstruating is a prime example). While I am sure some members would be ecstatic about a shoot based on the usage of feminine hygiene products, many many more would be grossed out. We're able to cater to some fetishes that I judge would be popular, but not all of them.
I am not saying I know best - I am sure I have missed out on good opportunities - but someone has to make the decision, and that's me. Additionally, stuff I shoot, _I_ have to be into myself, or I just cannot do it justice. That's not fair on the models, the crew, or the members.
>I don't think they are crap ideas, because then i would not have posted
>them. Others might think so... Atleast i didn't make any of sucj remarks to
>the others ideas, even if i thought they weren't really that good.
Yes, thanks for your restraint. Most people also showed restraint, which is good. We need ideas, not to argue. Even if I don't use your specific idea as a whole, I liked several small elements (girls describing personal things to each other, touching each other and adjusting the fit of under-garments, to name two).
>> >I suppose i could tell you... But i think you are more a 'photo site'
>>than a'video site', so it wouldn't matter anyway.
>>You may think that, but more and more people are joining the site for the
>>video stuff only, so the pressure is on us to do more and better stuff.
>
>To be perfectly honest with you Abby (i don't see ant reason for lyeing...),
>and i mean this in a positive constructive critisism... If that last
>statement is true, i would suggest you put a lot more effort into your video
>clips.
Yes, again, easy to say. So here's a short story.
I used to sub to image sites from 1997 to 2000 or so. I was always disappointed by what they had (very few sites had video then, and anyway, I was on 28k modems!). So I started thinking about making my own site. I had always liked (stills) photography. I started shooting for it. Then I opened a site. Some people joined. Then people started saying, "hey, why don't you guys shoot some videos?".
A mate had a new digital video camera. Another mate - VidDude - was interested in shooting and editing video. So we shot some video (Jasmin was the first). We had no fucking idea how to do it (on SO many levels). We had never shot proper video before, but we thought, how hard can it be?
We klutzed our way thru it. Initially, members were very thankful for videos, regardless of how crap they were - they appreciated the effort. Remember, we're not a massive media company, we're just a few people who share some similar ideas on how stuff should look. More of a collective of interested people, than a profit making exercise.
Months went by, we got new subscribers, who did not realise how and why we started, and complained, much as you are complaining, "how come you make me pay for these crap videos?!".
So, we had to either tell these people to piss off, ignore them, or make better videos. By this stage, I was starting to realise I was on to a good thing. Initially, I had a full time 60-hour week day job, and the site was a hobby. But the site was growing, and the new people joining were expecting from us the same level of material and service as mega-sites provide. I considered ditching my day job, and working on the site full time.
Sounds like a dream come true, right? A hobby you love, being turned into a profitable medium-sized business... but the truth is, I kinda miss the early days. Now, everything we do is 100% official and legit. While we don't have multiple share-holders, I do feel obliged to grow the company and keep it running as best I can; as opposed to a hobby, where you can pretty much do what you want.
I don't really like videos. I never downloaded them from the web, much preferring VHS tapes or later DVDs. But our models were up for. Many of our members wanted more of it. VidDude was keen. We had the gear and the models, the time and the money... but still not a lot of skills.
So, it's nice of you to suggest we put more effort into our videos, but it's not that simple.
The effort we put in has to be _productive_, effective effort. I can't just clap my hands, say "right! Today, we're gonna shoot some video!". We need cohesive ideas, that fit in both with the paradigm we created with the website, what the models are comfortable with, what WE are comfortable with and find engrossing, and what the members find interesting.
It's easy for you to suggest that, but it's hard for us to produce videos that Work. Before you say it, I know many other sites have lots of video content, but we're not like other sites. Just because they have hours of video of models "masturbating" (slamming a massive dildo in and out and groaning theatrically), were not gonna make crap like that.
If a model is going to be masturbating on video, she needs to do it for real. Our models are amateurs in the true sense of the word. Not pros with bad makeup wearing jeans and sneakers and acting nervous, like other sites, but normal girls off the street who have never, EVER done anything like this before.
Expecting them to masturbate convincingly on video with a crew in the room is just not realistic. Some models can pull it off (ha!), and those that can, we shoot. But there's not many of them, and even if it is real, it's not always interesting enough for release.
This is an example of the AW paradigm. In this case, it's restrictive. Viewed another way, it means we keep our quality level up - or at least one aspect of it - the "reality" factor. Maybe that means our vids are forever going to be lame for you and some other people. But some prefer reality and damn the expense of their fantasies (which have been built up and spoon fed to them by the mass media).
>Im not sure what quality those people are used to, if they haven't
>seen any other sites, they might think your video clips are good. As soon as
>they start browsing around, i think they will change their mind though.
Well hang on, that's a bit rich!! Jesus. What we're talking about comes down to personal opinion, not a matter of "right" and "wrong". I am not saying our videos are perfect, but I think you'd agree that most of them - especially the newer ones - have several elements in common:
spunky girls
naked
talking
doing Stuff
(interacting with each other if a GG)
Please be careful not to oppress opinions. We have already established that you don't like our videos, but that does not mean they are crap, nor that everyone agrees with you.
>Quite a few of them have this really annoying music!
Yah, I dislike the music a lot. VidDude does all the video editing, and the music addition was his call (there are several threads on the boards about the music, if you'd care to read them). I always disliked it, but the site is a group effort, and VD thought it was good, so I let it slide.
The music covered up bad, inappropriate, or non-existent live audio in our early videos. When we learnt how to capture live sound properly, we started including it more. Now, all our new vids have 100% live sound, and we're not adding music any more. At the moment, I'd say live sound account for a bit less than half of all our content. I guess we could remove all vids with no live sound, but a lot of those vids are good, even though they have bad music, so I figure we keep them.
>they are too short,
>...and quality could be better.
Yah, the length of videos is probably due to change. We have been pegged to the two-minute format since we started. Around half our members are on dialup, so we need to provide videos for them that are effective. We used to use a lot more footage of models. That means we'd shoot 10 minutes, and use eight - more videos, more website updates.
Now, we might shoot 10 mins and use two to three minutes - we're editing more aggressively. Earlier videos tended to ramble, now they are shorter, sharper packages. That also means less material to update the site with, and to entice potential members with based on numbers.
As I said, I don't DL vids from other sites, but several review sites have said thought our video content is very good quality (I never thought it was, but I guess they'd know...).
We made the Gold videos 4 minutes long, and much better quality, and these have been popular. We regularly get complaints from dialup users, but there's not a lot I can do.
>not too exciting, not enough 'action'
By "action", I am not clear if you mean explicit-ness, or models moving around... for the former, we shoot models to a level of explicit-ness they dictate. Some are more comfy to do explicit stuff for stills and not video. Whatever their decision, we respect. Unlike a lot of sites, we don't coerce our models into doing ore than they planned. We offer them the work, and let them decide.
For the latter, I dunno, I guess they could move around more. *shrug* they need an activity to make that effective. Sometimes we come up with fun and interesting stuff, others we try hard and it does not work, still other shoots just tend to be more static.
>i think you have such a big potential here... You have so many
>really beautiful and really sexy girls on your site.
...
>I know for sure i would scream with enjoyment!!
Yes, I know we have a lot of potential. People tell me this every day. I get emails from people who INSIST I am utterly CRAZY if I do not pursue their fetish. They say I'd be rolling in money, members would be beating down my door, etc.
Some of these people have been convincing - the guy who was a hardcore balloon fetishist, for example. Said as soon as I included a balloon-centric shoot, he'd tell his fetish buddies, and I'd have dozens of new members, and I'd get other people interested in that fetish as well. So I did the shoot to his instructions. It cost a lot of money, and this guy said it was one of the best balloon shoots he had ever seen...
Of course, I got apparently no new members because of it, and very few positive comments. I think most people were bemused by it... it's kinda weird. The shoot is in Deviations.
This same story could be told about several shoots I have done at other people's behest. Others gross me out - do you want to see shoots of models shitting on the floor? Apparently I could double my daily signups overnight, if I included that. Or play with used tampons. Or knife play. And so on.
Sure, some people would scream with enjoyment, but others would be alienated. Of course, plenty of people are alienated as it is - I regularly get emails telling me they cancelled because too many of my models had pubic hair (something we cherish, here)!!
In the end, all I can do is "maintain the rage" with my own personal vision for the site. Some people will join cos they like what I like, others will cancel when I change something. I could try to appeal to the lowest common denominator, like some of the mega sites do - dozens of shoots covering every possible fetish in a lukewarm fashion - but then you end up with a rambling mess with no cohesion or passion (that's a bad thing!)
I long ago realised the only way to run a successful biz on the net is to pick a niche you know well and appreciate - feel passionate about - and shoot for that niche. That's what we do. The business is growing faster than I can keep track, and I guess that's an indicator that I am doing something right (even if you think it's not).
>If you could manage to capture the moment on your video clips as good
>as you do on your photo shoots, im sure they would be amazing.
Interesting comment. Unfortunately (again) unrealistic, except on a concept level. The mediums are totally different in so many ways. When you start shooting for your site, you'll realise this. Or, maybe you'll make me eat my words, and show the world how effortless narrative on film can be. img tag disable, use attachment mgr/system to add images to postshttp://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif
If you have some practical tips for me, I am all ears. Not a fantasy of what you'd like to see - that's nice, but not the point.
>Maybe my ideas doesn't seem so bad (crap) after all....?!? img tag disable, use attachment mgr/system to add images to postshttp://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif
I never said your ideas were crap, just that they were mostly not practical.
>So, again let me say that i don't say any of these things to be nasty or
>rude in any way!! It's ment as a constructive critisism. I hope you're not
>mad at me...?? img tag disable, use attachment mgr/system to add images to postshttp://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif
Nope, not mad at you - I always appreciate feedback, especially when you back your claims up with reasons (instead of saying "your vids are crap!").
However, I am a little frustrated that you think that all it takes to produce brilliant video clips are fantastic ideas (aka, fantasies). That's about 10% of the work, and the EASY 10% at that. It's the other 90% that's hard.
--------------
Been exchanging emails with a member, thought I might post my most recent reply here, as it has some info some ppl might kie to know...
--------------
Hi
>My board name is *****. If i remember correctly, i did post a fe suggestions
>regarding your girl/girl shoots... You didn't seem to like them very much!
Ah, yes. Just had a re-read of your posts.
You have some good ideas, but like a lot of consumers, you do not have a realistic view of producing videos. It's easy for consumers to say "well, that's not my problem, you ask for ideas, and I am giving you ideas!", but I am not a magician, nor a particularly amazing video producer. So, as I replied to you in the thread, we need PRACTICAL ideas for shoots.
We have the tools, the models, the staff and the money to produce videos, but we're lacking PRACTICAL ideas.
I am not being a grumpy bitch for the sake of it, I am being realistic. I have been on probably hundreds of video shoots, and I know how they work, what the limitations of the models, gear, light and locations are.
I know you think I am being grumpy (you alluded to it several times in your last three emails!). I used to be JUST like you, before I started a site. Making constructive criticisms when I could, trying to get websites to make a better product. They seldom replied, and when they did, they said, "dude, you just don't GET it. Life isn't like that".
It took me three years of my life to find out why.
When you start making material for your site, you'll find similar obstacles. You'll end up selling out (at least partially) just as I and so many other have. Sometimes, you just have to compromise. It sucks, but it's life.
>img tag disable, use attachment mgr/system to add images to postshttp://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif I know it is difficult to accomodate members requests... Im sure you
>have got a lot of members, and im sure a lot of them have requests as well.
Yes, this is another problem - ideas posted by yourself and others centre around specific fetishes that plenty of people find off-putting (menstruating is a prime example). While I am sure some members would be ecstatic about a shoot based on the usage of feminine hygiene products, many many more would be grossed out. We're able to cater to some fetishes that I judge would be popular, but not all of them.
I am not saying I know best - I am sure I have missed out on good opportunities - but someone has to make the decision, and that's me. Additionally, stuff I shoot, _I_ have to be into myself, or I just cannot do it justice. That's not fair on the models, the crew, or the members.
>I don't think they are crap ideas, because then i would not have posted
>them. Others might think so... Atleast i didn't make any of sucj remarks to
>the others ideas, even if i thought they weren't really that good.
Yes, thanks for your restraint. Most people also showed restraint, which is good. We need ideas, not to argue. Even if I don't use your specific idea as a whole, I liked several small elements (girls describing personal things to each other, touching each other and adjusting the fit of under-garments, to name two).
>> >I suppose i could tell you... But i think you are more a 'photo site'
>>than a'video site', so it wouldn't matter anyway.
>>You may think that, but more and more people are joining the site for the
>>video stuff only, so the pressure is on us to do more and better stuff.
>
>To be perfectly honest with you Abby (i don't see ant reason for lyeing...),
>and i mean this in a positive constructive critisism... If that last
>statement is true, i would suggest you put a lot more effort into your video
>clips.
Yes, again, easy to say. So here's a short story.
I used to sub to image sites from 1997 to 2000 or so. I was always disappointed by what they had (very few sites had video then, and anyway, I was on 28k modems!). So I started thinking about making my own site. I had always liked (stills) photography. I started shooting for it. Then I opened a site. Some people joined. Then people started saying, "hey, why don't you guys shoot some videos?".
A mate had a new digital video camera. Another mate - VidDude - was interested in shooting and editing video. So we shot some video (Jasmin was the first). We had no fucking idea how to do it (on SO many levels). We had never shot proper video before, but we thought, how hard can it be?
We klutzed our way thru it. Initially, members were very thankful for videos, regardless of how crap they were - they appreciated the effort. Remember, we're not a massive media company, we're just a few people who share some similar ideas on how stuff should look. More of a collective of interested people, than a profit making exercise.
Months went by, we got new subscribers, who did not realise how and why we started, and complained, much as you are complaining, "how come you make me pay for these crap videos?!".
So, we had to either tell these people to piss off, ignore them, or make better videos. By this stage, I was starting to realise I was on to a good thing. Initially, I had a full time 60-hour week day job, and the site was a hobby. But the site was growing, and the new people joining were expecting from us the same level of material and service as mega-sites provide. I considered ditching my day job, and working on the site full time.
Sounds like a dream come true, right? A hobby you love, being turned into a profitable medium-sized business... but the truth is, I kinda miss the early days. Now, everything we do is 100% official and legit. While we don't have multiple share-holders, I do feel obliged to grow the company and keep it running as best I can; as opposed to a hobby, where you can pretty much do what you want.
I don't really like videos. I never downloaded them from the web, much preferring VHS tapes or later DVDs. But our models were up for. Many of our members wanted more of it. VidDude was keen. We had the gear and the models, the time and the money... but still not a lot of skills.
So, it's nice of you to suggest we put more effort into our videos, but it's not that simple.
The effort we put in has to be _productive_, effective effort. I can't just clap my hands, say "right! Today, we're gonna shoot some video!". We need cohesive ideas, that fit in both with the paradigm we created with the website, what the models are comfortable with, what WE are comfortable with and find engrossing, and what the members find interesting.
It's easy for you to suggest that, but it's hard for us to produce videos that Work. Before you say it, I know many other sites have lots of video content, but we're not like other sites. Just because they have hours of video of models "masturbating" (slamming a massive dildo in and out and groaning theatrically), were not gonna make crap like that.
If a model is going to be masturbating on video, she needs to do it for real. Our models are amateurs in the true sense of the word. Not pros with bad makeup wearing jeans and sneakers and acting nervous, like other sites, but normal girls off the street who have never, EVER done anything like this before.
Expecting them to masturbate convincingly on video with a crew in the room is just not realistic. Some models can pull it off (ha!), and those that can, we shoot. But there's not many of them, and even if it is real, it's not always interesting enough for release.
This is an example of the AW paradigm. In this case, it's restrictive. Viewed another way, it means we keep our quality level up - or at least one aspect of it - the "reality" factor. Maybe that means our vids are forever going to be lame for you and some other people. But some prefer reality and damn the expense of their fantasies (which have been built up and spoon fed to them by the mass media).
>Im not sure what quality those people are used to, if they haven't
>seen any other sites, they might think your video clips are good. As soon as
>they start browsing around, i think they will change their mind though.
Well hang on, that's a bit rich!! Jesus. What we're talking about comes down to personal opinion, not a matter of "right" and "wrong". I am not saying our videos are perfect, but I think you'd agree that most of them - especially the newer ones - have several elements in common:
spunky girls
naked
talking
doing Stuff
(interacting with each other if a GG)
Please be careful not to oppress opinions. We have already established that you don't like our videos, but that does not mean they are crap, nor that everyone agrees with you.
>Quite a few of them have this really annoying music!
Yah, I dislike the music a lot. VidDude does all the video editing, and the music addition was his call (there are several threads on the boards about the music, if you'd care to read them). I always disliked it, but the site is a group effort, and VD thought it was good, so I let it slide.
The music covered up bad, inappropriate, or non-existent live audio in our early videos. When we learnt how to capture live sound properly, we started including it more. Now, all our new vids have 100% live sound, and we're not adding music any more. At the moment, I'd say live sound account for a bit less than half of all our content. I guess we could remove all vids with no live sound, but a lot of those vids are good, even though they have bad music, so I figure we keep them.
>they are too short,
>...and quality could be better.
Yah, the length of videos is probably due to change. We have been pegged to the two-minute format since we started. Around half our members are on dialup, so we need to provide videos for them that are effective. We used to use a lot more footage of models. That means we'd shoot 10 minutes, and use eight - more videos, more website updates.
Now, we might shoot 10 mins and use two to three minutes - we're editing more aggressively. Earlier videos tended to ramble, now they are shorter, sharper packages. That also means less material to update the site with, and to entice potential members with based on numbers.
As I said, I don't DL vids from other sites, but several review sites have said thought our video content is very good quality (I never thought it was, but I guess they'd know...).
We made the Gold videos 4 minutes long, and much better quality, and these have been popular. We regularly get complaints from dialup users, but there's not a lot I can do.
>not too exciting, not enough 'action'
By "action", I am not clear if you mean explicit-ness, or models moving around... for the former, we shoot models to a level of explicit-ness they dictate. Some are more comfy to do explicit stuff for stills and not video. Whatever their decision, we respect. Unlike a lot of sites, we don't coerce our models into doing ore than they planned. We offer them the work, and let them decide.
For the latter, I dunno, I guess they could move around more. *shrug* they need an activity to make that effective. Sometimes we come up with fun and interesting stuff, others we try hard and it does not work, still other shoots just tend to be more static.
>i think you have such a big potential here... You have so many
>really beautiful and really sexy girls on your site.
...
>I know for sure i would scream with enjoyment!!
Yes, I know we have a lot of potential. People tell me this every day. I get emails from people who INSIST I am utterly CRAZY if I do not pursue their fetish. They say I'd be rolling in money, members would be beating down my door, etc.
Some of these people have been convincing - the guy who was a hardcore balloon fetishist, for example. Said as soon as I included a balloon-centric shoot, he'd tell his fetish buddies, and I'd have dozens of new members, and I'd get other people interested in that fetish as well. So I did the shoot to his instructions. It cost a lot of money, and this guy said it was one of the best balloon shoots he had ever seen...
Of course, I got apparently no new members because of it, and very few positive comments. I think most people were bemused by it... it's kinda weird. The shoot is in Deviations.
This same story could be told about several shoots I have done at other people's behest. Others gross me out - do you want to see shoots of models shitting on the floor? Apparently I could double my daily signups overnight, if I included that. Or play with used tampons. Or knife play. And so on.
Sure, some people would scream with enjoyment, but others would be alienated. Of course, plenty of people are alienated as it is - I regularly get emails telling me they cancelled because too many of my models had pubic hair (something we cherish, here)!!
In the end, all I can do is "maintain the rage" with my own personal vision for the site. Some people will join cos they like what I like, others will cancel when I change something. I could try to appeal to the lowest common denominator, like some of the mega sites do - dozens of shoots covering every possible fetish in a lukewarm fashion - but then you end up with a rambling mess with no cohesion or passion (that's a bad thing!)
I long ago realised the only way to run a successful biz on the net is to pick a niche you know well and appreciate - feel passionate about - and shoot for that niche. That's what we do. The business is growing faster than I can keep track, and I guess that's an indicator that I am doing something right (even if you think it's not).
>If you could manage to capture the moment on your video clips as good
>as you do on your photo shoots, im sure they would be amazing.
Interesting comment. Unfortunately (again) unrealistic, except on a concept level. The mediums are totally different in so many ways. When you start shooting for your site, you'll realise this. Or, maybe you'll make me eat my words, and show the world how effortless narrative on film can be. img tag disable, use attachment mgr/system to add images to postshttp://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif
If you have some practical tips for me, I am all ears. Not a fantasy of what you'd like to see - that's nice, but not the point.
>Maybe my ideas doesn't seem so bad (crap) after all....?!? img tag disable, use attachment mgr/system to add images to postshttp://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif
I never said your ideas were crap, just that they were mostly not practical.
>So, again let me say that i don't say any of these things to be nasty or
>rude in any way!! It's ment as a constructive critisism. I hope you're not
>mad at me...?? img tag disable, use attachment mgr/system to add images to postshttp://www.abbywinters.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif
Nope, not mad at you - I always appreciate feedback, especially when you back your claims up with reasons (instead of saying "your vids are crap!").
However, I am a little frustrated that you think that all it takes to produce brilliant video clips are fantastic ideas (aka, fantasies). That's about 10% of the work, and the EASY 10% at that. It's the other 90% that's hard.
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