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    Good things and Bad things

    I cancelled my membership after a month and I have to say I enjoyed this website tremendously. I thought it had many great features. To help you guys, I figured I would give you a critique as I am a veteran of web porno.

    Good things:
    • Photo quality
    • Forums/Community
    • Personality of website
    • Administration
    • Organization
    • Navigation
    • Photoshoots at the model's houses
    • Being a female you get the girls to do stuff they normally might not do in a photoshoot

    Bad Things:
    • Girl/Girl was lame
    • No indication if the model does explicit posing
    • I find that when a hot model does not do explicit posing, i feel cheated/frustrated
    • I found the nature shots and forest stuff to be completely unappealing
    • Not much variety in ethnicity
    • Some girls were kind of un-appealing aesthetically
    • I am not totally convinced you know what turns men on when you take the pictures but rather you stumble across good shots or somebody from your team who is male advises you.

    All this is purely my opinion. I realize that some people love all the things Iisted as bad. So don't bother flaming me as I won't have access tomorrow. I belong to another forum where I am cataloging my porn visits and I will give this website a solid 8.5 stars out of 10. (it's currently my 3rd best ranking). I'll probably be back in 2008 after another good 3 years of content has built up.

    BYE! Thanks Abby and crew, Keep up the GREAT work.

    Jack

    #2
    Originally posted by jacktse99
    • Girl/Girl was lame
    That won't wash dude. Lame how? Who makes good GG IYO? If you love everything penthosue do, you're going to hate our stuff. Your intent seems to be to help us to get better, but with commetns like this, you're just taking cheap shots.*shrug*

    • No indication if the model does explicit posing
    Agree. Some people like the surprise, others prefer to be informed. VidDude and I have been arguing about that for a while, I am going to put my foot down on it now.

    • I find that when a hot model does not do explicit posing, i feel cheated/frustrated
    Uh huh. Well, you can't blame us for your feelings, dude. The models do what they want, we reckon that's better for everyone. There are plenty of sites out there that do only explicit, so you'll be mroe happy at them, I expect. Plenty of people don't like the explicit stuff, so we do roughly half and half, aiming to please most people, most of the time.

    • I found the nature shots and forest stuff to be completely unappealing
    ok...

    • Not much variety in ethnicity
    No. Not much of one for reading the FAQ, are you?

    • Some girls were kind of un-appealing aesthetically
    Yah, you're right. We should have a special connection to your brain, and know what you like, and only shoot that. All the other people on the site can fuck off.

    • I am not totally convinced you know what turns men on when you take the pictures but rather you stumble across good shots or somebody from your team who is male advises you.
    Ok.

    Thanks for your feedback. It'd much more useful (and likely to affect the direction of the site) if you were specific.

    a

    Comment


      #3
      I'll probably be back in 2008 after another good 3 years of content has built up.
      Well Abby, that leaves you three whole years to make the GGs Hot and Sizzling, a regular dildorama and tribfest, shoot models who are explicit and aesthetically appealing* and ethnically varied, lose the forest and nature shots, find out what turns men on, and oh yes, invent that tap-Jack's-brain device. I just hope my tastes are similar to his. I'd better email him my preferences.

      Shouldn't be too much work. Especially if you ask some men to help.

      *I guess you'll have to devise a theory of aesthetics, too. Better work nights and weekends.

      I cancelled my membership after a month and I have to say I enjoyed this website tremendously
      Yep, I cancel all my web subs after one month, especially if I really like them.

      Comment


        #4
        I see Abby has already been here, so if I may add a few observations as an average member: To start, I agree with your positive statements. A few responses to the negatives--
        G/G was lame
        ????? Show me a site that consistently depicts real amatuer girl/girl pairings any better.
        I am not totally convinced you know what turns men on...
        I'm not sure that's the point. Abby made this site for herself, because she was not happy with the available mainstream porn. So it necessarily contains things that she herself likes. The fact that we men like it too is a happy coincidence. Personally, one of the most appealing things about AW is that we see female beauty from a female perspective.

        HM

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by jacktse99
          ... I am a veteran of web porno.
          Veteran does not necessarily equal expert.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by jacktse99
            I am not totally convinced you know what turns men on when you take the pictures but rather you stumble across good shots or somebody from your team who is male advises you.
            IMHO here is where you are dead wrong. Honestly, at what other website do you see discussion forums as active as here? Where else have you had the option to air your opinions and get such a voluminous response.

            Abby doesn't rely on "somebody from her team who is male to advise" her. She has dozens and dozens of active participants in these forums who advise, and as you can see from her response to you, she listens. If you've been watching the forums, you know that she reacts positively to a lot of suggestions. (BTW, even without the advise of members, I think her instincts as to what the members want are often dead on.) She also listens to people who email her.

            What you are really saying is, you are not totally conviced Abby knows what turns YOU on. Well, be more specific and she'll know. But remember she has other members to please as well.

            Comment


              #7
              Though I don't agree with him, overall I think it was a reasonable post expressing his opinion.
              Shame he's not prepared to stay awhile longer and work towards what he'd like to see more of.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by jacktse99
                No indication if the model does explicit posing
                Apart from, you know, looking at the thumbnails that are right in front of you. I suppose we could add a word or icon somewhere on the imageset link that says so, but is looking at that really going to be any easier than looking at the thumbnail preview or clicking to the gallery and seeing it right there in front of your face?

                This is where Abby and I differ.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Ok, here's my take on all those

                  I absolutely love the GG sections, all tiers included. Gives me such pure enjoyment, and I am so happily satisfied, I don't know what could make it better (besides a broadband connection to download it all! But AW can't give me that).

                  I always like the surprise if a model shows her naughty bits, and am happy either way. So having an indication is really a moot point to me, since I don't care.

                  As for feeling cheated, refer to above. I can be just as turned on by women doing the erotic things they do (even if not blatently sexual), while still not having them be explicit.

                  I like the nature shoots. It gives a different setting, and a sort of risk (occasionally, such as when Chloe B was busted during her videos by all the little kids, or whatever). I like inside shoots, and outside. So, I would like Abby to continue both. It's at a happy medium right now.

                  As was mentioned previously, read the FAQ. Not much difference in ethnicities, because white girls are mainly what comes in from the ads. (I assume) She takes what she can get.

                  Some girls that may not be "it" for you, might push all the right buttons for someone else. Who's to say that freckles are sexxy? It differs, and I like that we have such a varied community here on AW. It leads to a lot of discussion, and even finding something else you may like. So, going around saying that some girls just shouldn't have been put on the site, is rude not only to the girls, but to everyone else who may like those girls also.

                  Well, I think Abby does well at turning me on, so there's not really much to say about that either.

                  If you are still reading comments, then I hope you realize that this wasn't the best way to say all this. In the forums, I've seen many people who like different things then me, but they do it in a civillized way. Posting rudely will not get anything changed, but if you approach the discussion with dignity, then we welcome all comers here.

                  dg

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Thanks Jack for expressing your opinion. I find criticism to be more entertaining than praise, as well as more beneficial to the site, regardless of how its written.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'm still trying to reconcile the list of negatives with an 8.5 rating. I find criticism more entertaining than praise, especially when Abby turns on her unique brand of sarcasm. Another feature you get only at AW.com.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by jacktse99
                        ...won't have access tomorrow....
                        ....... it's currently my 3rd best ranking.......
                        Would be interesting to know about #1 and #2 of his ranking a pity he left already.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by artlover
                          I find criticism more entertaining than praise, especially when Abby turns on her unique brand of sarcasm. Another feature you get only at AW.com.
                          Couldn't have said it better myself.

                          I can see his 8.5 rating... he did have a long list of positives and he did say he enjoyed it tremendously.

                          His last sentence about being back in 2008 after "3 years of content has built up" leads me to believe his #1 is ATK or some megasite like that. For some people quantity trumps quality.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Just ask Trump.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by artlover
                              I'm still trying to reconcile the list of negatives with an 8.5 rating. I find criticism more entertaining than praise, especially when Abby turns on her unique brand of sarcasm. Another feature you get only at AW.com.
                              Great comment, however, it's sooo easy to go the way of our Media that says "Good news" is "no news". There seems to be a pretty good balance here.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                How can he just leave us all hanging on with his criticisms? Without hearing to what we have as replies or defence? Is it that we have to hear him and fight / console amongst ourselves? I find this ridiculous. But some how i have a feeling that he is lurking and checking how his views are bring taken by us all. Esp that of Abby.

                                Let me tell something. I have subscribed to sapphic. The GG shoots are all so similar that after a while you can almost feel as to what comes next. Here the unknownst is infact a build up. After all life needs a little mystery and intrigue.

                                And the democracy we enjoy in these discussions through this board, is unparalleled.

                                Great work abby. I would give you 11 out of 10.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  As we say in my neck of the woods I don't give a rat's ass what he thinks or says. The joys of anonymity!

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by jacktse99
                                    • No indication if the model does explicit posing
                                    The problem with this statement is that you don't indicate what you think explicit posing is. Even if Abby wanted to follow you're advice, you didn't give her enough information. She might think she followed you're advice and when you re-joined you could look at the pics and say, "You call that explicit? I've been robbed!!".

                                    I think it boils down to taste. That's why there are different genre's.

                                    Have fun!!

                                    Alleyes

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I didn't think I would still have access to the forums... so i think I will elaborate!

                                      __________________________________________________ __

                                      The first thing I have to say is: Abby doesn't take criticism well. Kind of hostile towards my opinions, even after I repeatedly said I LIKE YOUR WEBSITE! I did this to help you, not to hurt you. I took my time to lay out why I liked and did not like yor site. Would you prefer I kiss your ass and leave the site without saying anything? If so, you should rename this section to "Good things only". I had 8 positives and 7 negatives and not one of you even mentions aby of the positives!
                                      __________________________________________________ __

                                      A lot of the things I said were purely my opinion. And I said so. That explains why I listed some of my personal preferences. I like girls to pose explicit and to look a certain way. I would like to see ethnicity. I TOLD THE TRUTH. Abby can either 1. Do nothing, 2. Make an effort to get more ethnicity because people like it. I can't say whether Abby gets private messages all the time for more ethnicity or not but the info I supplied to her may have served as one of many members/former members who would like to see more ethnicity. I am not putting a gun in her head, i'm supplying her with my opinion.
                                      __________________________________________________ _

                                      How do I justify a 8.5 rating with my list of negatives? Easy, like I said in the first sentence of the post — I enjoyed this site tremendously. I listed the good things as my opinion and the bad things as my opinion. However, it seems most people read it as "THIS GUY HATES ABBY WINTERS BECAUSE HE HAD BAD THINGS TO SAY". That's not true. The positives I said far outweighed the negatives.
                                      __________________________________________________ _

                                      "Veteran does not necessarily equal expert."

                                      I never implied I was. I think I represent a average porn site member. My opinion may mean nothing but if all of you started a thread like I did and gave AW some critism, then one member's voice would be multiplied many times over into a majority. [or not]
                                      __________________________________________________ _

                                      Girl/Girl is lame? To me it was. IN MY OPINION — you didn't direct the shoot much and let them do whatever. While some people love this approach... I don't. I felt that in most of the shoot, the girls were kind of lying on top of each other doing lesbian stuff. Much like real life... SOME PEOPLE LIKE THAT, and I understand that but I would prefer you say "Hey stick your butt up a bit arch your back while you eat her out" or "Spread her butt apart as you lick her bits". As far as I can see, they did their stuff and you left them alone and just documented it. What site has hot girl/girl scenes? ClubSandy does, yeah it's pro rather than amateur but I think if you were more open-minded in doing research rather than attacking me, you may pick up one or two things.
                                      __________________________________________________

                                      I read in a few of the summaries that this girl liked to pose very "porn-like" as if that was a negative. I find some porn poses to BE HOT! And it's not like it hurts your site to say, stick your butt out and look at the camera a bit. I noticed on way too may of the non-explicit shoots — the model stands and does nothing while you take pics of her front (and then she turns arounf and you take some pics of her back). While there is something nice to seeing her breasts and pubes, I think it's not out of the question to have her do a pose instead of just standing there. This is why I am not convinced you know what turns men on.
                                      _________________________________________________

                                      My all time ranked so far is AMKingdom with a 9 and ALScan with a 9. Abbywinters is actually tied with my ranking with ClubSandy. I love pro and amateur. The best combo of pro and amateur is Matts Models by the way. He IMO is a photographer that has a understanding of what turns men on. It's a quality I can't describe completely but IMO, he has it and Abby does not. [and just to clarify because some of you are going to read this wrong again — Abby does a great job. I give her a solid, A minus. I think other photographers are just better and they deserve a A plus]
                                      _________________________________________________

                                      My habits in terms of websites are, go through the site's content at a comfy pace. I went through your site's contents in about a month. I generally like to jump around as there are many great sites I have never tried out. I don't think you should see it as a negative I am leaving your site.
                                      _________________________________________________

                                      Even though I didn't like half your website, you still ranked as my third favorite ranked site. That is like the ultimate compliment from me. I still think in my original post, I was very appreciative, thankful and complimentary towards the site and you. If you wanted more data, you have all my info — you could have emailed me if you wanted more specifics.





                                      And last but not least my opinion on critiqueing other people:
                                      When you say "great job, i love your site". That does absolutely nothing for you or Abby. Abbywinters is not a perfect website IMO. I told her what I felt was the truth and it's totally up to her to make her own decisions. Since she is the boss here, she takes the data and weighs it and make the decisions. I am in a field where a portfolio is necessary. I always ask people to tell me what they don't like rather than what they do like. I can take criticism real well, and I don't hold back because I don't believe it does any good to not express my opinion when you invite me to do so.
                                      Last edited by jacktse99; 9 August 2005, 12:38 AM.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Well, I get points for guessing that his #1 site was ATK.

                                        And several of the members here (including me) noted that he said many nice things about the site, and wasn't uniformly negative.

                                        Enough. I'm off to look at pretty naked girls.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Save some for me!

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by jacktse99
                                            I did this to help you, not to hurt you. I took my time to lay out why I liked and did not like yor site.
                                            Yes, I appreciate your comments, and that's why i thanksed you in my post.

                                            Would you prefer I kiss your ass and leave the site without saying anything?
                                            No. But offering "advice" by saying "i thinkt he GG shotos are lame" is a cop out. That's not advice, it's useless. Some of your feedback was great, a fair ehack of it was not much use.

                                            OF COURSE it comes down to personal opinion, but to make the site better I need details.

                                            Girl/Girl is lame? To me it was. IN MY OPINION — you didn't direct the shoot much and let them do whatever. While some people love this approach... I don't. I felt that in most of the shoot, the girls were kind of lying on top of each other doing lesbian stuff. Much like real life... SOME PEOPLE LIKE THAT, and I understand that but I would prefer you say "Hey stick your butt up a bit arch your back while you eat her out" or "Spread her butt apart as you lick her bits". As far as I can see, they did their stuff and you left them alone and just documented it. What site has hot girl/girl scenes? ClubSandy does, yeah it's pro rather than amateur but I think if you were more open-minded in doing research rather than attacking me, you may pick up one or two things.
                                            Thanks, that's all I wanted. In this case, I won't follow your advice - that's just not the way we shoot. Plenty of other sites (over) direct their shoots, so I am sure you'll be more pleased with them. I know that we loose potential customers that way, but I'm not doing this to appeal to as many people as possible.

                                            And it's not like it hurts your site to say, stick your butt out and look at the camera a bit.
                                            Nope, doesnot hurt. It's just a stylistic difference - one that you don't appreciate. Which is cool. I have a lot of respect for the trad porn sites, and without them, my site would be pointless.

                                            This is why I am not convinced you know what turns men on.
                                            The thousands of paying members we have seem to be satisified, so I will chalk this down to one person's opinon. I appreciate your opinion, but I am sure you can imagine the amount of emails I get from people asking for stuff. This is the first time anyone has accused me of not knowing what turns men on. Plenty of people write nasty things, and plenty of people send in critticism, so it's not liek they are going to hesitate to say something like that.

                                            So, you're pretty much fringe in this opinion, dude.

                                            I don't think you should see it as a negative I am leaving your site.
                                            Hey, don't flatter yourself. Plenty of people join, plenty of people leave. Plenty of people join again.

                                            Even though I didn't like half your website, you still ranked as my third favorite ranked site.
                                            Well, thanks. It was rude of me to ignore your positive feedback. Some of your negative feedback frustrated me so much that I just write about that. Sorry.

                                            If you wanted more data, you have all my info — you could have emailed me if you wanted more specifics.
                                            er, I did email you... did you not get it? (the address you used when you joined). Anyway, I think this discussion is best had in public. Maybe it will encourage all the other people who want me to do more posey stuff to come out in your support?

                                            My problem with your post is that the negatives were not qualified. "I don't like mary" is meaningless on it's own. But you have calrified your position, it's much more useful. So, thanks for doing that.

                                            a

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by jacktse99
                                              And it's not like it hurts your site to say, stick your butt out and look at the camera a bit.
                                              It's ironic you just lapsed, cos Vivienne next week will be right up your alley on this count.

                                              a

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                It seems to me that that key word in the post was "documentary". In my photo classes this was a legitimate form of photography. I think that is what AW is, not totally scripted. Maybe not ALWAYS what I/we like but honest. Thanks Abby!

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Jack is of course entitled to his opinions and, as Abby already commented, his second post was much more useful as he actually goes into specifics.

                                                  However, I'm kind of bemused in the implication of his statement "I am not totally convinced you know what turns men on" which is that the same things turn all men on. Different things turn different men (and women) on.

                                                  Wouldn't have thought this needed stating, but apparently...

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    I've been looking at porn off and on for several decades, and after years of exposure to the same butt-in-the-air-take-me-big-boy stuff, it didn't turn me on like it used to. So I encountered Abby's less-is-more approach. Suits me fine.

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      I could respond with all sorts of eloquent and flowery prose about the merits of AW, but they'd be meaningless. The best compliment I can offer is my continued membership and support.

                                                      While Jack's post may have rubbed some folks the wrong way, and I agreed with some of Abby's responses, I don't think we should through the baby out with the bath water. In fact, I happen to agree with a couple of his points.

                                                      1. Personally, I've witheld constructive criticism from these boards mainly because I've seen so many times when someone braver than I speaks up, the response is generally along one or two lines:

                                                      * "Dude, you don't know what you're talking about. Abby does excellent work, period! You don't like it, go to a Barbie-doll site that features those fake-tittie tongue touchers, and leave us alone!" Thus dismissing any interest in improvement while disparaging the member's concerns at the same time.

                                                      * "I like Abby's work, therefore you should too." As if all our tastes run exactly the same. Sauce for the goose and all that

                                                      Sometimes (not always, but sometimes) I get the feeling of exclusivity, and dissent isn't tolerated. I hate feeling like that, but that's what I feel when any criticism is voice and subsequently disparaged.

                                                      This is our site too. Sure, Abby started it, controls the content, and maintains it functionality. But this is still a commercial venture dependent on its customers to continue and grow. I'm uncomfortable whenever I see a boss or employee brushing aside a customer's comments with, "Hey, we're a big outfit, so go ahead and leave if you don't like it. No skin off my nose." There's no way I could know by looking how many members there are. I can't even round it out to the nearest hundred. But I'd hate to tell someone who'd put down their hard-earned money to see my work that their input doesn't matter just because they haven't been around as long or post as often as others. As a businesman as well as an artist, I know that this could all end tomorrow. Just because lots of people tell me they like what I do, that doesn't mean I take any of my own success for granted. I may not be able to implement everybody's ideas, but they still matter.

                                                      2. True, Abby created this site as a viable alternative to the heavily over-directed, over-posed content of other pay sites. On this premise I welcome her with open arms. But sometimes I get the feeling that the staff consensus seems to be "any direction at all" is equal to "over-direction". Surely there's a viable middle ground where the models can work together and still keep that air of spontaneity. Me, I like the GG2 and GG3 content (the models are so lovely sometimes I feel faint), and I respect other's opinions of the rest. All I'm saying is, direction in and of itself of a erotic photo or video session isn't inherently bad, just because so many people did such a piss-poor job before. Modern erotica is barely in its adolescent stage, after all. AW may be one of the better ones but this isn't the end of the road.

                                                      3. I've discussed the issue of ethnicity with Abby before, and I believe her explanation comes from complete honesty. There just aren't a lot of non-white women who show interest in doing a shoot. That said, more proactive outreach could be done in my opinion. I'm not saying anything about quotas, I'm just saying expand your outreach a bit. I doubt anyone would complain if more women of color were included in the shoots.

                                                      4. Each and every time I've written a note to Abby, she's responded personally, within 24 hours and in a pleasant tone. I'm impressed. When you get down to the short and curlies, I believe that Abby really cares about what we think. I flatter myself that nods are made in my direction in the content on occassion, based on my past suggestions. Now that feels great.

                                                      I hope this site is around for years to come, and keeps improving. And I end this post with an assertion I learned a long time ago, when I too worked for someone else: "Every complaint is a gift, an opportunity for improvement."

                                                      We now return you to your regularly scheduled erotica

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Abby
                                                        I know that we loose potential customers that way
                                                        But you keep a lot of customers too! BTW, anybody who looks at the free tour and then joins expecting conventional "butt-in-air" porn needs to have their eyes examined.

                                                        Casgrain says, try a little firmer direction. That will be fine when you find models who are trained actors. It would be no good if they looked like they were being directed, as non-actors surely would (and do, on other sites.) Just my opinion.
                                                        Last edited by Philos; 9 August 2005, 10:19 PM.

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by crepescule
                                                          ...1. Personally, I've witheld constructive criticism from these boards mainly because I've seen so many times when someone braver than I speaks up, the response is generally along one or two lines:

                                                          * "Dude, you don't know what you're talking about. Abby does excellent work, period! You don't like it, go to a Barbie-doll site that features those fake-tittie tongue touchers, and leave us alone!" Thus dismissing any interest in improvement while disparaging the member's concerns at the same time.

                                                          * "I like Abby's work, therefore you should too." As if all our tastes run exactly the same. Sauce for the goose and all that...
                                                          It is my perception that it is more the style of the criticism that causes the problem.

                                                          When my kids were growing up, they would have a difference of opinion and get into a big tiff. They always got mad at me because I dealt with the tiff rather than the underlying issue. It was the tiff that was irritating me.

                                                          I have never been brushed off for saying something critical or suggesting my preferences. Defenses go up when someone becomes offensive and demanding. I think that is natural. Hit and run is no way to show that you are serious about what you are saying.

                                                          .02

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            With all due repect, Big Spud, this is exactly what I was talking about. This has happened to me, it's happened to Jack, and to others as well. It happens, and it's not right. It's one thing to be a troll, but Jack qualified his remarks with plenty of positives, and he came back to clarify his position. We ought not get defensive when someone offers up constructive criticism.

                                                            Comment

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