AW more corporate?

[sunlover]

My feeling is, there is a lot of talking on these shoots as it is (a frustrating amount, cos they forget what they are supposed to be doing, a lot of the time). Location sound with that many models is going to be hard, and harder still if it's at the beach or beside a waterfall, tho, you're right.

The bad news is that this site is becoming more amd more corporate each day.

It is ashame it has lost it's orginal character, but at least Abby made out which is more than fair

[arsby]

Do you mean corporate, sunlover, or bigger?

Abby's not going to be able to give you a steady diet each week of 3 new models, a redux or two, often a girl/girl set, and several videos all by herself. She needs a full staff for that, and needs to plan things out. Not really "corporate" (Playboy is corporate), but pretty big.

She can go back to working pretty much by herself, ditch the "corporate", and give you two or three sets a week. Is that what you want?

[Abby]

I agree that we're getting bigger, and the snowballing effect has made us (and would any company) change. I am definitely more jaded than I was when I started, and this is going to change me, and thus the site. But I don't think it's more corporate, per se, and that is something I am trying really hard to avoid, cos I hate that stuff myself (like banks, utility companies, etc).

Sunlover, I'd like to hear specific examples of what you think is making the site more corporate?

a

[takochan]

Abby's not going to be able to give you a steady diet each week of 3 new models, a redux or two, often a girl/girl set, and several videos all by herself. She needs a full staff for that, and needs to plan things out. Not really "corporate" (Playboy is corporate), but pretty big.

She can go back to working pretty much by herself, ditch the "corporate", and give you two or three sets a week. Is that what you want?

Well said, Arsby.

Not being an original member I can't say anything about what it was like originally (though I guess a comparison of some of the early videos with those Abby and the team present to us now speaks volumes), but in the year and a bit since I joined the site what I think I have seen is not a loss of character but rather a growth and development of character, resulting in an enrichment of the experience and enjoyment it offers us.

It hasn't been a steady process -- I seem to recall a time, maybe as long as a year ago, when the
site seemed to be rather languishing (it coincided, as I recall, with some concern that Abby could be close to burnout) -- but look back to a year ago and the development that has occurred is really striking. A sure sign of how positive that development has been was the speed with which Abby and the team responded to the idea voiced on the boards of a double IM and turned it into a thrilling reality (having the capacity to do that involves far more than the "ooh, I like that" that was Abby's initial discussion board response; among much else it calls for not just creative vision but planning and management in order to realize the vision). The site was great when I joined -- since then it has become immeasurably richer and more exciting, and more responsive to members, and a lot of that has to do with management.

Development like this isn't something that just happens -- it has to be managed; it needs a team of people with a variety of skills who can join together and contribute those different skills and attributes in working to realise a shared vision, a shared passion and commitment. Building a team like that isn't easy -- first you have to find the right people, and that's a challenge for any businesss -- and nurturing it takes work. Ideally, one hopes that there will be people who can take care of the bits of business that Abby finds uncongenial, and who will support her by enabling her to focus on the things she loves doing -- and hopefully those elements will all blend together through the sharing of a commitment to what the site is about.

And, thank goodness, that is what seems to have been happening. We've seen how the team has grown, with some really great personalities appearing on the scene and taking a share of the overall workload (as well as contributing their lively presences to the discussion board). The extent to which that growth has succeeded is something we all have cause to be thankful for -- it wasn't and isn't inevitable.To call that growth process "going corporate" is to miss the point

Organizations and people change, grow, develop -- change, growth and development are essential parts of what life is about, and wanting this site to stay the same or go back to a previous state is to go against nature. The site has a unique ethos, feel, culture, call it what you like, and it is in the nature of cultures to develop -- standing still is usually a prelude to decline and death. The biggest challenge, perhaps, is to mature without growing stale. Right now Abby and the team seem to be meeting that challenge brilliantly, producing a rich volume of truly exciting goodies. For that, Abby and the helpers around her deserve our thanks and our support.

One old fart's two-bits-worth.


takochan

[artlover]

Well-thought and well-said, Takochan. Millie, send that man a muffin!

[sqrt17]

Hi all,

I agree with takochan that it is a fantastic achievement to keep the site running and rolling, both artistically and organizationally. I also think that the amount of really fantastic stuff (as in, Annabel and Jamie, or Rosanna and Chloe B, or The Salsa Girls) hasn't gone down (and I really mean the top 10, which we get maybe once in one or two months), and the amount and quality of the more explicit stuff (read GGT3) has grown quite a bit.
That said, it's not the explicit stuff that makes Abby's site so special (there's more explicit porn out there than you can shake a stick at) and maybe not even the beautiful girls (although that criterion doesn't leave that many alternatives), but the concept that the models are natural and there's some good fun in it. A good example of this would be Gabrielle's first shoot, or the Jacintha vids (long live Jamie and the Timtams!), or Francis' cooking show vid. And while there's nudity in there (and maybe some explicit stuff at the end), most of the time it isn't that raunchy sex-like-you've-never-seen-before.
I think it's important to keep this in mind and besides just trying to churn out lots of superior quality erotic imagery, remember that it should be something you (as in Abby, Verity, VidDude et allii) would like and and enjoy to watch, not just because it's well made but because it's the kind of stuff you (and the model(s)) personally enjoy and would like to look at.

Something I keep wondering about: is it just my impression or is it really so that in the past, there were almost always two people at shoots (e.g. Abby and Jamie in the case of the Jacintha vid) and that recently, it's just one person who does all the work?

-Sqrt17

[Abby]

Takochan, thanks for that. Maybe you'd like to come over here and help us out? We need a general manager.

is it just my impression or is it really so that in the past, there were almost always two people at shoots (e.g. Abby and Jamie in the case of the Jacintha vid) and that recently, it's just one person who does all the work?

The way we shoot has changed a lot lately, as we ramp up GG and IM shoots. Seems like a good topic for a new thread, which I will start shortly. There are going to be some disappointed people around, I can feel it in my waters. *sigh*

a

[joannembd]

Takochan does have valid points. Organizational change is one of the areas I work in. I agree that some of the changes taking place are a natural
evolution of the organization. A lot of it is probably unavoidable and
it *can* be a positive thing. I also agree with takochan's view that a lot of
talented and dedicated hardworking people have joined you and that
that's a good thing.

I guess I'm reacting more personally, [see my post in the other thread on how the shoots are done now] mainly to the feeling that I
had a key part of what turned me on to the site in the first place
pulled out from under me. That then did connect with a sort of vague
but growing disatisfaction with the site recently.

I think the style and the content of a lot of the photography
*has* been changing. Obviously, changes have been satisfying to
takochan and some others, more than to me, since takochan interprets it as more vision and I
interpreted it as less. Or less of what I was interested in, less of
what I'd originally found at AW. Sigh. Maybe I'm changing

It's hard to explain exactly what I mean. But I also agree with some of sqrt17's
comments. There seems to be much more of an effort to
produce a *lot* more explicit stuff. And while I like explicit stuff,
the explicit isn't what I joined AW for. When I *want* explicit stuff,
there's lots of places I can get more explicit stuff that's well made
and good quality. And it's felt, like in turning out a lot more IM
stuff [which does nothing for me, particularly, as a woman] and really
emphasizing it, and really promoting T3 shoots, while at the same time
cutting back on things like Backstage and interesting girls talking
about their lives, all *feels* like a business decision, almost a
marketing decision, rather than an artistic one.

Ah, I have to remember that it's a *porn* site!

But I also like Abby's photography - It tells a story. It has a flow to it.
Watching photosets in slideshow format, moving fairly quickly, one can
feel being drawn inside of it. I see less of that lately, where
there's been less of a flow from shot to shot. I enjoy looking
at it from a photographic standpoint as well as erotic. Abby would often comment on howshe had to solve some problem of lighting or setting or something in a
shoot [or didn't]... There's less of that, and now we find out Abby's
not doing the photos and we have a team - a committee - of
photographers.

I think AW can still be a cool place... I hope it doesn't get to be too much like a business.

Oh well... Those are my reactions fwiw.

[Abby]

I think the style and the content of a lot of the photography
*has* been changing. Obviously, changes have been satisfying to takochan and some others, more than to me, since takochan interprets it as more vision and I interpreted it as less. Or less of what I was interested in, less of what I'd originally found at AW.

FTR, a lot of what we do, the directions we go in, comes from feedback we receive here on the boards, and by emails. My criteria for accepting these ideas is kinda like this:

(1) is it in the spirit of the site
(2) do I reckon it's sexy or at least interesting
(3) do we have models in our current pool up for it
(4) do we have the gear, time, skills to do it

This not to say that I make these decisions without regard to how they will affect sales - I do. I have done thing that I assumed would not affect sales at all, and have affected them dramatically. I have done things that I did not even CONSIDER COULD affect sales, and they did. Done things that were engineered to positively affect sales, and did not, and vice versa. And done things that I knew would negatively affect sales, and damn the consequences (such as the "how the shoots work now..." thread).

Sigh. Maybe I'm changing

Hey, don't underestimate this. I dunno if this just me, but I find that something I see one day reminds me of a book I read 10 years ago that I really liked, but then lost. So I bust a gut trying to find that book, and after months of searching, I find it, and start reading it, and I am bitterly disappointed at how badly it is written.

The book has not changed, but my appreciation for good writing (and my ability to overlook it) has.

The same thing has happened to me with music, too. And Lego! I had lego when I was a kid, and I freaking LOVED it. Now I am an adult and working a lot, I need to find things to relax with, so I bought a bunch of lego... and I kinda don't have the patience for it. The lego has changed a bit, but mostly. I have changed.

And I think that happens with tastes in porn as well. Coupled with the way people like to romanticise about "the old days" (and their tendancy to do so despite there being no evidence for it being "better"), this may be affecting you. It certainly affects me.

It's hard to explain exactly what I mean. But I also agree with some of sqrt17's
comments. There seems to be much more of an effort to
produce a *lot* more explicit stuff. And while I like explicit stuff,
the explicit isn't what I joined AW for. When I *want* explicit stuff,
there's lots of places I can get more explicit stuff that's well made
and good quality.

Yes. And it's for that reason, there's a limit on how explicit the stuff we do is. And the same reason we shon't start shooting older models (prolly our number one request in the last year, shoot 30 - 45 year old models, the same was we shoot these "kids")... but that';s just not something we do. By catering to more types of shoots, we end up doing them all in an average fashion, and none of them well.

As it is, I think we do pretty well ata the amateurs being amateurs, generally happy, generally naked, generally fooling around.

My goal has been to maintain a 50/50 ratio of explicit to non explicit stuff. partly cos that's what I think there is a place for (sometimes to want softness and light, othertimes, you want it a bit dirty, yeah?), but also cos that way, we can appeal to more people. Those who like softcore only stuff, can be a mamber of this site, and be pretty happy with stills and videos, and ignore the hardcore updates. and vice versa for the ppl who prefer the explicit stuff.

And it's felt, like in turning out a lot more IM
stuff [which does nothing for me, particularly, as a woman] and really
emphasizing it, and really promoting T3 shoots,

Ah, interesting you say that. These are two things I wanted to have from the very start of making the site, and only lately do I feel we're able to excel in these areas. My plan to to focus on them a lot more in the future - more shoots, better shoots.

while at the same time cutting back on things like Backstage

uh, we're not cutting back on Backstage stuff at all. In fact, we're shooting more (and better) BS stuff now than we ever have before. The thing is, a Backstage update usually covers seven models, and we add three or four models a week to the site. So that means we can only have a BS set every two weeks, max.

Right now, I need to edit more backstage sets, which is a HUGE task that I am dreading, but has to be done. So it's going to be a few more weeks, sorry.

and interesting girls talking about their lives,

uh, we're still doing this, another one of those things that is actively loosing us customers. Some ppl are joining the site ONLY for the videos (which frustrates me), and so expect us to have similar sort of stuff on video as other (video only) sites do. There is a lot of pressure on us to ditch the videos of models talking, and I have resisted that. I doubt we will ditch it ever.

Over the next few months, we're getting into videos that Verity shot that are a million times better than the ones that have ever been on the site, technically, creatively, sexually, everything.

all *feels* like a business decision, almost a marketing decision, rather than an artistic one.

I do not feel I have made too many compromises on this biz vs artistic level. One of them is allowing affiliates to promote our site. Without them, we'd be a lot more like what you want... but we also might not still be in business.

I do not regret my decision to work with affs, and I knew it would lead to accusations of selling out, but it's a thorn in my side, cos in a way, I AHVE sold out by doing it.

There are probably some more ways we have sold out, tho I cannot think of them right now. Every decision I make, it's very much one of the top considerations: is this selling out? The longer we're around, the hazier this line is, too.

Ah, I have to remember that it's a *porn* site!

*ahem* I htink you mean "erotica"...?

I think AW can still be a cool place... I hope it doesn't get to be too much like a business.

What makes it a cool place is ppl like you posting their opinions. Please, do not stop. They mean a lot to me, and do affect the biz decisions I have to make.

thanks

a

[joannembd]

Abby said

My goal has been to maintain a 50/50 ratio of explicit to non explicit stuff. partly cos that's what I think there is a place for (sometimes to want softness and light, othertimes, you want it a bit dirty, yeah?)

Yes, that's what I like, you're right. If you can maintain the balance, I'll be happy.

About the IM and T3 stuff...

Ah, interesting you say that. These are two things I wanted to have from the very start of making the site, and only lately do I feel we're able to excel in these areas. My plan to to focus on them a lot more in the future - more shoots, better shoots.

Interesting - I'm not *opposed* to IM and T3 stuff. Gracious, no.

I was trying to suggest only that I had the impression that you were going more and more IM and T3 simply because that's what's selling, doing less of other stuff. If all I want is IM and T3-type stuff, there's a ton of it out there on the net and around. It is true that some of the IM's recently don't seem to have done anything for me close to what they've obviously done for a lot of other people. But I like the T3's a lot. I just don't want to see AW trying to compete with the rest of porndom on their terms. Compete with the rest of porndom on your terms. Do IM's and T3's with the inimitable AW style and I think I can be pretty happy. I think I was looking for reasurance about that. And I also like T2's and T1's.

Thanks.

[Abby]

gggrrr, why would you assume we're going to ditch everything that ppl love about the site, when it has made it successful and we like doing it?

People always assume any change is going to do this, and start bitching about it.

But you're not. So uh, thanks.

a

[Jorinel]

Ah, I have to remember that it's a *porn* site!

*ahem* I htink you mean "erotica"...?

Abby, I'm sure that I remember your saying in some long ago thread that abbywinters.com was a Porn site when someone was trying to class it as something else - erotica, perhaps.

Does this mean that your perception of your site is changing, too

Jorinel

[Abby]

nah I was kidding. It's not erotica, it's art.

a

[Numlock]

My two cents worth…

In the short time that I’ve been a member here (Just coming up on a year I believe), there have been quite a few changes that ‘add polish’ to the content. This is NOT to say that the videos and stills appear staged or ‘touched up’, but rather that photographic techniques have improved.

I think that the word ‘corporate’ is overkill but I also feel that I might know what sunlover was trying to say. When I first subscribed there were still hints (a feeling) of two people fumbling around in the back seat of a car. There were those awkward little moments where the mistakes showed. Now I feel that the AW site is more like the young couple who managed to come up with the money for a hotel room. The excitement is still there but the ‘ragged edge’ has been removed. There are no fears of a constable showing up to find out why the windows are steamy.

As with most things sexual this has both its good and bad points. I would have to say that the more recent GGT3 shoots show a LOT more comfort and therefore intimacy. To me this is a good thing. The ‘bad side’ of this is that the video flows very nicely so imagining ourselves being the ones holding the camera really disappears as an option. (Excellent videography makes us forget that the camera is even there!)

So I agree with the spirit that I THINK that sunlover was trying to express. The ‘grubby hands groping in the back seat of the parents’ car feeling’ has faded away, and with it a tiny bit of the ‘edgy excitement’ that such things offer up. Still, when I can see two young ladies feeling so incredibly comfortable in a GGT3 shoot that they really do let it all go, I’ll take that over the ‘edgy’ thing many times over.

Regards

[Abby]

When I first subscribed there were still hints (a feeling) of two people fumbling around in the back seat of a car. There were those awkward little moments where the mistakes showed. Now I feel that the AW site is more like the young couple who managed to come up with the money for a hotel room.

Heh, nice metaphor! (hm, or is that, analogy?)

a

[takochan]

Takochan, thanks for that. Maybe you'd like to come over here and help us out? We need a general manager.a

Thank you for a much appreciated compliment. Can't move from where I am, though -- and anyway, I'm probably far too old and staid to keep up with the pace at Chateau AW

So I won't be able to do more than toss the occasional thought across the ditch.

takochan

[alleyes1]

On this front, I'm going to try to reflect something that I didnt come up with but is nevertheless true. Companies that have a single person that "personifies" the company, generally have a difficult time transitoning after that person either leaves or as in the case of Martha Stewart, have something difficult to happen. Not to say that it can't be done, but it's difficult. Another problem that's hard for companies is, to resist always listening to their accountants. (Sorry accountants). Many times there is a very positive) attribute of the company that can't be measured in dollars and cents. (Or whatever, in Australia). This is extremely sad because many times what is clear as day to customers is not understood by the "higher ups" in the company because all they are looking at is the quarterly reports. An example of this is the rip that Dell took over sending their standard support desks to India. I have nothing against the good folks in India, there are plenty of very sharp IT people here in the U.S. from India and I have met some top notch people from there. The mistake was that all they (Dell) were looking at is balance sheets and how much money it would save the company. In the long run, if the situation is allowed to go on , it will cost much more money than they saved, in lost income. I, for one, will not buy a machine not matter how "good" it is, if there isn't good support available. (I will and have paid for support to get good support).
In Abby winters case, I think one thing "other than the pictures", that make Abbywinters special is the "community spirit" that I messaged about in one of my posts. (A portion of it is in, the Testimonials section) I fear that this will be lost because increasingly it could be seen as not being a "revenue producer", so will be dropped. Well, as with many things,time will tell.


Alleyes

[rnbwpnt]

Rainbow the copyright guy here.

Testimonials section) I fear that this will be lost because increasingly it could be seen as not being a "revenue producer", so will be dropped. Well, as with many things,time will tell.

In another thread I talked a little bit about the discussions I've had with Abby, and I can tell you that some of them are directly related to how to -increase- participation and satisfaction here. Abby recognizes the many values of the forum, not just as a place for feedback, but also as a community-building tool. The forum and the community is part of what makes the site unique. And while it's true that Abby has only a certain amount of time to spend on any given task, she recognizes that her participation here is important to the forum's success.

There are no plans to eliminate the forum. I promise.

- Rainbow -

[Abby]

In Abby winters case, I think one thing "other than the pictures", that make Abbywinters special is the "community spirit" that I messaged about in one of my posts. (A portion of it is in, the Testimonials section) I fear that this will be lost because increasingly it could be seen as not being a "revenue producer", so will be dropped. Well, as with many things,time will tell.

Apart from being aware of how popular these "added extras" make us, they are something I enjoy and count as being very valuable to the site, and the business as a whole.

There is no way in hell we'd be changing these elements, and anyway, they cost little real dollars for us to make work. We're also working on a few things to get customers more involved in the site - like ListMania. I do have a few accountants advising me on a variety of issues, but none have an effect on operational things - they advise on things like tax minimisation, and if we should rent, lease, hire-purchase or outright buy a new company car, boring stuff like that.

Remember that unlike Martha Stewart and many similar company based on a single person, we're not a puiblic company with shareholders and a board to answer to, and wer're never likely to become one (kinda sorta, members could be considered shareholders, but I am not sure if Economics works like that?). You "go public" to raise capital, and we have enough capital to do what we need to do. That means the business is going to remain private, with me at the top and people I employ directly to be involved with it. But there are always going to be smatterings of the Socialist Workers Alliance politics here, witness the boards in action, for example.

a

(hoping she has not got her political parties mixed up...)

[alleyes1]

Abby,
What I was describing as far as the accountants, is you're right, more common in publicly traded companies, because their internal finance departments are run by accountants, also many of those in the areas of leadership have financial backgrounds so that's the way their "brain works". (I.E. view things) That's is when stupid mistakes can be made.

I realize I consistantly underestimate you Abby on changes made. It's just that most of us like the site so much that we don't want anything to spoil it.

Alleyes

P.S. Oh, if you ever do decide to go public, would you give you're members first crack at the IPO. (Initial Public Offering)? I'd be interested.

[artlover]

Also, Abby, you have a fully functioning moral compass, which Martha had trouble calibrating.

Sudden inspiration!! How about a line of AW bedsheets and pillowcases, personally signed (and stained ?) by the models. Abby's Signature Sheets, as it were.

I like the Listmania idea--it makes Amazon a lot more interesting.

And thanks for the kind words about the boards. It wouldn't be the same site without them... where else can I blather on about damn near anything and, if someone falls asleep, never know...

[alleyes1]

Artlover,
You have a grand idea!! How about a picture of your favorite model' s picture embedded into the sheets you're laying on???? (It just doesn't get any better than this!!)

Shh.. Artlover, I'm starting a new "mature" web site and have signed martha as the first model. ya' wanna get in on this? it'll make gazillions!!!

Alleyes

[arsby]

Shh.. Artlover, I'm starting a new "mature" web site and have signed martha as the first model. ya' wanna get in on this? it'll make gazillions!!!
Alleyes

OMG, she's such a BABE! I'm definitely in!