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    #61
    Originally posted by Abby
    Right.

    What Monty Python move was the "Save our Sperm" song?

    a
    That would be "Every Sperm is Sacred" from "The Meaning of Life".
    They blew almost the entire budget for the film on that one song & dance number.
    Timbit

    Everyone sing-a-long now:

    "Every Sperm Is Sacred"

    There are Jews in the world, there are Buddists,
    There are Hindus and Mormons and then
    There are those that follow Mohammad, but
    I've never been one of them.

    I'm a Roman Catholic,
    And have been since before I was born,
    And the one thing they say about Catholics is
    They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

    You don't have to be a six footer,
    You don't have to have a great brain,
    You don't have to have any clothes on,
    You're a Catholic the moment Dad came, because

    Every sperm is sacred,
    Every sperm is great,
    If a sperm is wasted,
    God gets quite irate.

    Every sperm is sacred,
    Every sperm is great,
    If a sperm is wasted,
    God gets quite irate.

    Let the heathen spill theirs,
    On the dusty ground,
    God shall make them pay for
    Each sperm that can't be found.

    Every sperm is wanted,
    Every sperm is good,
    Every sperm is needed,
    In your neighborhood.

    Hindu, Taoist, Morman,
    Spill theirs just anywhere,
    But God loves those who treat their
    Semen with more care.

    Every sperm is sacred,
    Every sperm is great,
    If a sperm is wasted,
    God gets quite irate.

    Every sperm is sacred,
    Every sperm is good,
    Every sperm is needed,
    In your neighborhood.

    Every sperm is useful,
    Every sperm is fine,
    God needs everybody's,
    Mine, and mine, and mine.

    Let the pagans spill theirs,
    O'er mountain, hill and plain.
    God shall strike them down for
    Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

    Every sperm is sacred,
    Every sperm is good,
    Every sperm is needed,
    In your neighborhood.

    Every sperm is sacred,
    Every sperm is great,
    If a sperm is wasted,
    God gets quite irate.

    Comment


      #62
      Wow this thread is awesome. There are so many different points of interest, and different points of view I don't quite know where to start...and the prospect of trying to write down every point I have flying around in my head is kinda daunting.

      So, here are a few select ideas...

      Firstly, gay pride isn't about separating anyone from anyone else. The premise behind it is that ignorance breeds misunderstanding; therefore, you get out there and show people who you are, what you're about (as a group) and how you feel (personally) so that the general public will understand you better. Without the exposure that this brings, acceptance is never possible. People can't accept something into their society if they don't understand it, or aren't educated fully about it. And stoneyyy I don't think you can say that gay people are widely accepted in Australia, yet. Sure you don't hear about the gay bashings that you do in the US and other countries, but take it from me...walking hand in hand with a girl down a street in Melbourne is STILL very contentious. And it's STILL causes a lot of grief for those two girls...and that's just girls. I know for a fact that gay men have a much harder time of it then lesbian women, because apparently it's more 'ok' for women to be gay then it is for men in the eyes of this society.

      Secondly, I think Jo_s is right, there is good porn and bad porn feminism wise. I think it depends on who is doing it, and for what reasons. AW is pretty much all chicks, and the models are encouraged to be real people, to have real conversations, and aren't forced to embody the typical 'beautiful' porno girl, that being fake in every possible way (don't even get me started on that). But I think there is a lot more bad porn, a lot more exploitation, and a lot of porn that it could be argued will lead to exploitation of women in a more general sense. I kind of think that while there is still this exploitative, sexist view of women in porn, we will never be equal. Think about it...most men look at porn, and most porn is degrading to the women in it...that sets up a certain expectation, no?

      Anyway, I've been crapping on forever. That's just my two points for the mo. And also, someone asked (sorry can't remember who) if I have ever refused a dance with someone I didn't like and yes, I absolutely have. I refuse to put my personal, emotional or physical security in danger for a few bucks, and hopefully you'll find a lot of dancers that say the same!

      Comment


        #63
        Not so Gracie, Gays are very much accepted in all ways of life, does any one make a big deal anymore when you have the celbs come out and admit they are gay ... nope

        In many areas of Melbourne you can see gay couples going about their daily lives with no one annoying them.
        Its very much different to what it was 20 to 30 years ago.

        Lots of girls walk hang in hand arm in arm, if a girl feels uneasy about that, then it's more the girl comming out of her shell then the public worrying about it.

        Comment


          #64
          While I don't disagree that things are way better than they were 20/30 years ago, I also think that Aus has a looong way to go. This is just from my personal experience, granted, but I've experienced the discrimmination and it's not fun. Maybe it's not as out there as it used to be, and yes it's not politcally correct to voice your homophobia, but I think there's still a fairly large undercurrent of it that hasn't been addressed.

          Comment


            #65
            The under current would only come from those that see something different as a threat.
            I would say the focus for that now is more on middle easten folk then on gays etc

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by gracie_w

              What about pornography? Or stripping? Or prostitution? Are these an example of women being used by a chauvenist system, or are they using male desire to their own advantage? Is that then empowerment?
              The answer to that is that it depends on the reason for choosing to work in the porn industry or as a prostitute. I think you said in another thread that money was a factor in deciding to pose nude on AW and deciding to do explicit shots for you Redux set? Well money’s a motivating factor in me getting out of bed each day to go to work. It’s not the only factor, but if I could afford to give up work, much as I like my job, then probably I would. I don’t feel exploited by that fact and I don’t think anyone working as a porn model (part time of full time) or as a prostitute should either. The skill I choose to sell to my employer is my creative abilities; if woman chooses to sell the skill of displaying her body, I see no difference. If I thought people would pay to see me nude, I’d be happy to sell the same skill; sadly people would more likely pay not to see me nude.

              I think the problem comes with the fact that some women are clearly exploited by the porn industry or working as strippers or prostitutes. Margaret, on her thread, suggested she had work for some sites where she had felt exploited and highlighted the fact that AW is very much the opposite.

              Exploitation though is not limited to pornography, stripping, prostitution: a number of high street shops retail goods made, so I read in the media, in countries where workers have significantly less rights than we do in the 1st world. In looking at these images of Gracie, Margaret and Penny,some members of AW might fleetingly wonder if they are exploitive. Well, none of the models look as if they are being exploited, quite the opposite in fact. More to the point, how many of us ever consider when buying goods, just what the term ‘made in China’ or ‘made in Burma’ might actually mean?

              Comment


                #67
                i have a lot of thoughts on the subject of almost everything discussed here, but i wish i'd seen this thread earlier, i'm out of my depth now, with so much to say! heh

                i've marched in the sydney mardi gras a couple times, and helped out behind the scenes a couple more. i find it extremely rewarding, i love the look on people's faces - straight and gay alike - when they see the floats and the happy people marching down the street with pride. i love seeing young teenagers who have obviously only just come out (or maybe haven't at all and are marching anyway) being able to fully relax and express themselves, possibly for the first time. yes, things are better than they were, but if you're a 15 year old kid who realises he or she is gay, whether you're in the rich or the poor sectors, the city or the country, there will always - ALWAYS - be people who make fun of you, beat you up, call you names, and generally treat you like dirt. even if the overall vibe of society is to accept and not discriminate, that is not the reality on a day to day existance of most people. something like the mardi gras has two purposes. firstly, it gives those kids - and adults - a chance to relax and be themselves, to once and for all, even if only for that night, come out of the closet. that's so, so important. that's something that gives them hope. and second, it's a celebration and remembrance of that very first parade back in the 70's (79?) when the gays and gay supporters banded together and marched for their pride, saying that they would not lay down any longer, they would not accept discrimination, they would fight for their rights, no matter the consequences. they were beaten and abused and some were thrown in jail that day. the mardi gras celebrates that moment, thanks those people who started the possibility of gays having hope, being able to live openly in normal society.

                as for feminism, oddly, i am most definitely not a feminist. i dislike what they do and the things they claim they want. i want equality, yes, but i also understand that there is a need for men and women to be different. the old ways of the man caring for the family and the woman at home raising children really appeals to me. i love it when men open doors or pull out my seat at dinner. i love gentlemen. and in this age of feminism, men are almost afraid of doing those things for fear of being called a chauvanist. i find that ridiculous, and offensive. i am a woman, and you know what? i can do things that men can't - i can have babies, for example. and men can do things that i can't - like open jars :P but seriously, there is a need for both gender roles in society, and trying to make every aspect of life equal is not only unnecessary, but silly.

                i also believe in abortion, but am not sure if i would go through with it myself. i really want to have children, and at 24, i feel that if i got pregnant now, i would probably have it (though i would rather wait a little longer, please :P). i'm not sure what i would have done if i was younger and completely unable to support a child.

                hm, that's a lot of opinion, sorry for blathering!

                Comment


                  #68
                  Just a few thoughts:

                  Have a couple of gay and lesbian friends who are pretty ambivalent about the Sydney Mardi Gras for reasons that are pretty close to the points raised by Stoneyyy - namely that they don't feel that every aspect of who they are and what they believe in is defined by their sexual preference or, perhaps just as importantly, a single event that in some ways promotes a narrow stereotype of what it is to share that preference. They even feel that the term 'gay community' is somewhat disingenuous if applied in a dogmatic fashion (eg. whenever someone claims to be speaking on behalf of the 'gay community' one of my friends always likes to quipp that he doesn't remember voting for them...). There are gays and lesbians of all political persuasions, with careers in every kind of profession, of all ages and races (not that you'd know it in the current trend of gay and lesbian coverage in the mainstream media, but there are actually some who are older than 35 out there...) and with different priorities and opinions accordingly.

                  That said my friends are all adults, aged at least 25+, with established careers, a solid group of friends (gay and straight), living in a reasonably cosmopolitan city, and the confidence that comes with knowing who you are and where you stand that comes with that. I do take the point that for a gay teenager in high school or out in some one-horse country town, events like the Mardi Gras can still act as an important rallying point of identification and reassurance. I guess the point is that Mardi Gras, and the associated activities of gay pride activists, etc, is only one aspect of that life in Australia. It has its place, and I would argue, a still useful role to play but it is not the whole story.

                  Given the postings on feminism that have been contributed to this thread to date, it would seem a similar situation applies i.e. there are a range of schools of thought with the broad church of feminism per se, some that may, in hindsight have been misguided, some that have simply outlived their usefulness, and others that are as relevant as the day they were first put forward.

                  Most of the women I know share Gabrielle's and the other views on this thread that seem, in summation, to go along the lines of yes, women want equality of opportunity but reject the idea that men and women can be (or would want to be) exactly the same. Some might criticise this as a 'pick 'n choose' approach to feminism that implicitly 'betrays' the Feminist Revolution of the 60s & 70s through the jettisoning of parts of that original agenda, but I think it simply represents an evolution into a more mature, and nuanced, social movement. Extremist approaches and their adherents usually feature, and are usually necessary, in the early stages of any revolution, but there comes a time when the joyous destruction of the Robbespierre's and Marat's must be reined in for something a little more constructive if any lasting effect is to be acheived.

                  I got a little taste of this when I found myself going out with this girl who turned out to be heavily influenced by the works of Andrea Dworkin, particularly "Intercourse" (1987). I like to think of myself as a product of the 70s/80s re feminism - i've always treated the women in my life - family, friends, lovers, workmates - with respect. But I was utterly repelled by Dworkin's theories - as they were presented to me by my ex anyway - not least for what they did to her. Talk about Catholic guilt! - it was nothing compared to this. Everything was good at first but she really seemed to get upset about sex - she wouldn't tell me what was going on - except that apparently it was nothing I was doing - until about 2 months into the relationship. She was tearing herself apart because she really liked me and could'nt help herself sometimes (ie we had sex), after which she'd be racked with guilt at what she'd done: She'd got this idea from Dworkins that all hetero intercourse was tantamount to rape - lovely. Tried talking it through but nothing I said could convince her that I was not part of this male conspiracy to maintain the subordination of women via the act of intercourse. She did try to make me feel better by saying that I wasn't consciously doing it - Gee, thanks... (and apparently my previous lovers who had been quite enthusiastic about sex involving intercourse were suffering from false consciousness as well - the idea that these girls (who she'd never met) were all idiots did get me a little angry). Sad, to say that it didn't last too long after that - she was smart, very cool and gorgeous to boot, but had turned her lovelife into a source of guilt and misery. A casualty of the revolution perhaps...

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Wow Gabrielle !

                    Originally posted by gabrielle
                    ... i have a lot of thoughts on the subject of almost everything discussed here ...
                    hm, that's a lot of opinion, sorry for blathering!
                    Dear Gabrielle,

                    I could have sat at your feet - listening for hours !

                    Seriously, it was wonderful to read some of your considered opinions and beliefs.
                    One doesn't get that too often in real-life let alone here.
                    You know I'm a fan - I hope you believe me when I say I was very impressed by your post.
                    Well done !


                    TowelBoy

                    P.S. I can open jars !

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Originally posted by gabrielle
                      sorry for blathering!
                      Thats allright, it was interesting.
                      Equal rights activists have a good record for peaceful protest and balanced views. The news media likes to find all the freakiest things it can so extreme feminists have had the media attention and thats formed the popular notion of feminism. If someone is trying to be like a man so that they can have equal pride, there really insulting themselves. I think you should be able to be proud of, and take pleasure in being a woman, because being femme has as much value as being Homme.

                      Originally posted by Devotio
                      A casualty of the revolution perhaps...
                      She just needed to lighten up and do things that lifted her mood and not fill her mind with notions that depressed and troubled her. Then I suppose she would gain a better perspective on what things are important to worry about and what aren't

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by stoneyyy
                        Gays are very much accepted in all ways of life
                        More and more individuals are accepting them but that's still a far cry from being accepted by society as a whole.

                        does any one make a big deal anymore when you have the celbs come out and admit they are gay
                        The media no longer portray them as degenerates and probably most of your friends and associates don't, but here in the U.S. your undercurrent is a rip-tide; there is a vast body of people who savagely condemn homosexuality. You can hear it in pulpits, legislatures, and school boards all over the country.

                        In many areas of Melbourne you can see gay couples going about their daily lives with no one annoying them.
                        Why not in all areas?

                        if a girl feels uneasy about that, then it's more the girl comming out of her shell then the public worrying about it
                        Which girl is that? I suspect if you asked a hundred uneasy girls, you'd get close to a hundred different reasons for the uneasyness. While these girls may not worry about the public when walking hand and hand in the park they may have reason to be very concerned about parents, teachers, preachers, and potential employers.

                        - L

                        Comment


                          #72
                          I like a point upon which Gabrielle touched, which is that there is a need for men and women to be different. Whilst I feel that men and women should valued equally as human beings, I don't think that means that each gender must do all the things the other one does. Maybe people ought to be a bit more appreciative of the differences between the genders and of the variety they bring to life instead of trying to turn a blind eye towards them in the name of equality.

                          Regarding the feminists who object to pornography, I don't want to overgeneralize and put them all in the same corner, but I will say that just about all the ones that I've met personally are the types who've got no self-esteem , think that they're not desirable, and therefore feel that no other women should be desirable either. So they blame the perceived source of the problem, the fact that men find some women more desirable than others, and the most common mediums, such as beauty contests, men's magazines, and porno.

                          Yet the real problem is their lack of self-esteem. They don't have to believe that they all are super models, but they should at least recognize and appreciate the characteristics that make them attractive in their own way. Christ, I know I'm anything but Mr. Universe and I've never been one to attract attention with my looks, but I still couldn't care less if women want to look at certain men because they think those guys are sexy. That's life.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Well said, Tex. I find this too, that some ladies use it as an excuse to be ugly and sneer at pretty girls. It's unfortunate! When I went the nearly two years without shaving my legs I would get a lot of funny looks when I wore shorts or skirts, a number of people thinking I was a fem-nazi or lesbian. Whatever floats their boat... Yes, a friend actually told me his flatmate had referred to me as a "fem nazi". (On the commune the term was 'alpha bitch' as opposed to 'alpha male'.)

                            A lot of my friends, co-workers and even my professors at college told me I was quite the feminist, but I didn't get it. Sure I didn't shave my legs and I could be found up a tree on any sunny day and I was keen to answer questions in class or stand up to cranky managers, but I was also looking forward to being a housewife (and I was one for a whole year...what bliss!) and I love baking and cooking and I don't even mind ironing, love gardening and sewing, all those 'fwomanly' tasks.

                            But this thread has sort of renewed my hopes in the rationalities of people today when considering what 'feminism' means nowadays. I think a number of my college friends would be shocked to know I work for a porn site...until they saw what sort of site it is. I work for a great woman and amidst other great women (and men!) who understand that, as this thread has pointed out, women need a balance between sharing respect with men in society's eyes and enjoying the differences between the sexes.

                            And you know what else? I can have babies! That's pretty cool! (though I also prefer to wait a while...)

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Right, the thread has kind of taken on a new life, but I did say I'd post more about my thoughts on the subject, so I'm linking to an interview I did about it a couple of years back. Scroll down to get the english version of the interview.

                              http://www.feministes.net/interview_morgan.htm

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Valerie were they confusing your indivduality with femminism

                                Comment


                                  #76
                                  Wow, Josephine, that is a really cool interview. You just keep surprising me.
                                  You said you'd be interested to improve health conditions among sex workers - Is that still an ambition of yours? Any big changes to your goals since that interview?

                                  I happen to live about an hour's drive from the only legalized brothels in the US, and it puts an interesting perspective on those arguments, when they come up. I know we're getting close to some sticky political questions, here, but I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on the subject.

                                  Comment


                                    #77
                                    gosh, josephine, that is a great interview!! you just get more impressive all the TIME!!!!

                                    Once when I was in college, I went to class, and we had an unannounced guest speaker. Who of all people, but Betty Friedan!!!! Just like that. There I was sitting right on the front row with 20 other people as she spoke. This is one of those experiences in life where I wish I could do it over, because how many questions I would love to ask her. I was just too much of a dumb shit to know what to ask then.

                                    Alleyes

                                    Comment


                                      #78
                                      ok stoneyyy, i just have to disagree with you. In terms of 'the gays' getting together and celebrating gay pride, there are obvious historical reasons for this. first of all, it was not long ago that the act of sodomy was illegal, and gay people were persecuted, and still are, simply for who they have sex with. getting together to celebrate themselves is not an act of seperation, for these people still contribute to our society in every facet yes? but its about promoting equal rights denied to them by governments whose moral objections mean that if you are gay, you are not considered an equal citizen. The Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras is a massive party yes, but it is also a time to reflect on the history of gay people in our country and draw attention to issues such as the fact that they still cannat get married and be legally recognised, and all the social, economic and legal repercussions this has.
                                      This argument is likewise applicable to indigenoue rights, workers rights, womens rights etc etc.
                                      and, in conclusion, society is not homogenous, why should we pretend like it is? everybody doen't have to be the same to be equal, no?
                                      G

                                      Comment


                                        #79
                                        oh, he he im talking heaps hey? anyway, just wanted it on the record that i am a feminist, that i do not hate men, and that i have no problem with modelling for aw. how could i have moral objections to something that turns me on? (and does it ever!!!!)why do we have to label things that are sexually arousing, as sinful?

                                        Comment


                                          #80
                                          Gilian that was awesome, I admire your eloquence (and envy it, of course).

                                          Comment


                                            #81
                                            thanks gracie. its funny noe reading back on it, you cant have tell ive just gone back to uni and am totally inspired can you?
                                            i should run around screaming im a nerd im a nerd! (i totally am, and not a cool one either

                                            Comment


                                              #82
                                              and ....ahh, i haven't used a computer in a while either.....jeeez.....

                                              Comment


                                                #83
                                                Ok,
                                                I know we're breaking all rules here but, I'll just post my opinion and it is nothing more and nothing less.(It might be worth about as much as it costs you).

                                                In Christianity, the debate about the role of women, actually hinges on a debate that has been raging for decades in christian univiersities on a topic called, "the inerrancy of scripture". (If you look up inerrancy in dictionary.com, they use this as the sole example). Those who believe that the Bible is "infallable", believe that the Bible is literally, word for word, perfect, and came straight from God.

                                                Those who do not hold this view, point to many things to argue that it is not infallable, but the argument that pertains to the role of women, is that the writers of the scriptures were influenced by the times in which they lived. That is, women, in those days did not have an equal role in society so the writers of the scriptures were influenced in their writing by this. Another topic that has been justified by the literal interprentation of scripture in the past was human slavery. It says in the old testament, "Slaves obey your masters", rather than slavery is wrong. I know, incredibally, there are still people who think this is ok, but here again, it doesn't mean the writers were "bad men". It just means they were influenced by the times in which they live. (Just as I have been influenced by the time and place that I live, when I wrote this post!)


                                                This is my opinion. As I said, the inerrancy of scripture issue has been debated for decades so we won't get this solved in this thread. It is the explanation among most knowledgable Christians who believe in equality for women however.

                                                Thanks,
                                                Alleyes
                                                Last edited by alleyes1; 26 March 2006, 07:56 AM.

                                                Comment


                                                  #84
                                                  Originally posted by Abby
                                                  I think you're on a slippery slope here, and FTR, I disagree with you. By logical extension, you're saying that females do not contribute to society cos they are female, and I doubt that's what you meant.

                                                  Surely the way to approach it is, _everyone_ contributes to society by being who they are. Wether _you_ view that contribution as negative or not is another issue.

                                                  I do agree with the idea of people wanting "special treatment" (and how it can go too far the other way, hence "positive discrimination" where you have to have x% of black people in any group of people, regardless of the suitability of those people for the task (did I get that right? I am out of my depth here on race relations clearly)), tho I think you have the thrust of their argument mistaken.

                                                  I understaood that the gay pride marches (and other minorities) are NOT looking for _better_ treatment, they are looking for _equal_ treatment. They means they have to make a little more noise to be heard above the crowd, right?

                                                  a
                                                  Abby, I think you have summed it up pretty well here. I confess that I do not know how race relations play out in Australia as I'v never been there and the few people I know from there are all white. I am black and I live in the U.S. Here, race is a very big determinant of how one is viewed and consequently received.

                                                  My own experiences have been difficult starting from the age of 11 when I was stopped by police on christmas day and accused of having stolen the new bike that I had received from my parents as a christmas gift. Most of my difficulties have been with the Los Angeles police but that's not to say that I am a criminal. Only that I have been stopped, questioned, slapped around and almost shot more times than I can count for being in or driving through a neighborhood that doesn't reflect my profile. I have had to learn by instinct how to survive such encounters and sadly, I am now teaching my children the same survival techniques that my paents and granparents taught me. It is true that minorities have to make more noise to gain equal accesses. Sadly, to try and explain this concept to one who is not a minority is extremely difficult. I can certainly understand the need for gays and lesbians to "make noise" as it were. They certainly are discriminated against and in large measure.

                                                  Unfortunately, however, gays, blacks, hispanics and many other minorities who live a reality that forces upon them the need to scream sometimes scream for the worng reasons or become unnecessarily hostile or overly hostile to those outside thier group. This comes from years of mal-treatment and frustration and a feeling that to fight is to survive. To do nothing is to accept that you are nothing. A big pill to swallow. This can also perpetuate stereotypes, hatred and more discrimination. It can become a circular web of misery that eventually no one knows how to get out of. I just dealt with this in a similar way on another forum. One becomes accustomed to being treated unfairly and it stirs a primal rage that only women and minorities can fully understand.

                                                  I know some feminists, and I agree with a woman demanding and receiving equality. Anything less is inhumane in my book. However, some feminists are really just hostile....in fact overly so to the point where they will stand beside a woman on any platform just because she's a woman. Whether the platform is right or wrong by any objective standard is immaterial. This position, I think harms women and harms feminism. It becomes extremism and denegrates those who are rationally working to maintain the scales of balance. Moreover, it makes it all the easier to be dismissive of the feminist plight.

                                                  The same is true of gays and minorities. It is good to stand beside a friend. It is not good to stand beside a friend while chosing to blind yourself to that friends shortcomings. Unfortunately, far too many feminists, gays, and minorities adopt this posture thus helping to perpetuate the problem(s).
                                                  Last edited by Cruiser9; 8 May 2006, 07:19 AM.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #85
                                                    What a great discussion! Good one Gracie! Can't say that I have read it in entirity as I just happened upon this thread but. . . to go back to your initial questions - I do consider myself a feminist in that I stand for women's rights and encourage equality between the sexes. However - as I have found with the stereotype feminist that you describe - a very strong opinion can sway from being all feminist to anti-male. . . not that this is true in all circumstances but I have come accross a few and it surely defeats the purpose of the original debate - the same way someone described as a minority may start to hate those who are not considered a minority. How can one call themself a free-thinking, left-wing advocate when they are more a hypocrit than anything else. . . it is wonderful to stand strongly for something as long as you don't block off everything else - that is what I am getting at! Stand for what you believe in rather than putting all effort into what you are against!

                                                    Comment


                                                      #86
                                                      Originally posted by tanya_l
                                                      I have found with the stereotype feminist that you describe - a very strong opinion can sway from being all feminist to anti-male. . . not that this is true in all circumstances but I have come accross a few and it surely defeats the purpose of the original debate - the same way someone described as a minority may start to hate those who are not considered a minority. How can one call themself a free-thinking, left-wing advocate when they are more a hypocrit than anything else. .
                                                      Well said Tanya and this is precisely my point! Sadly, this is a very common phenominon.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #87
                                                        Hi all!
                                                        I was thinking Linsey wrote this thread but it was gracie. Thanks gracie!!!!
                                                        At any rate, I appreciate whoever brought this thread back to life. Don't have time to post now but will later.

                                                        Welcome Cruiser9 and tonya_l to the thread!!!

                                                        Alleyes

                                                        Comment


                                                          #88
                                                          Originally posted by gracie_w
                                                          But some people would say it isn't...some people would say that I'm being used for male entertainment, and that I am essentially objectifying myself. Whether or not I choose to do it is sort of irrelevent, it's that I am cooperating in the fetishism of the female body.
                                                          The fact that you're leading this conversation with us -- not just holding it but leading it -- means you can't be behaving only as an object. And we can't be regarding you as one either. People might be able to say other things, but they can't say that.

                                                          Jim D.

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                                                            #89
                                                            Originally posted by Cruiser9
                                                            It can become a circular web of misery that eventually no one knows how to get out of.
                                                            Hi Cruiser9,
                                                            I gleened a little about you from your posts, although I wasn't quite able to determine your age range. For your info and the record, I'm a middle age white guy that lives in the U.S. south. My obssesive/compulsive brain has been churning away at this thread for quite awhile tonight and like others have said, I could write a book. Rather than do that, I think I'll just make a few observations that have come to my mind.

                                                            During my thinking about this, the circular nature that you discussed in your above quote came to mind. An often overused word in the computer marketing community is the word paradigm. A few years ago, every new computer product was marketed as a "new paradigm", but of course it wasn't.

                                                            Here is one of dictionary.com's definitions of the word paradigm:

                                                            2. A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline

                                                            A primary problem regarding race relations in the U.S. in particular, as I see it, is that all races perpetuate their paradigm down to the next generation. And both are doing this concurrently thus the circular nature of the problem. And your question is the $64 million dollar question. How do we break this cycle.

                                                            Obviously, I don't have the answer this late Monday night.

                                                            I know that a little over a year ago, I was frustrated and getting very angry about alot of what I watching on the news everyday. Finally, I realized that just bitching at the television or bitching at my dad, wasn't doing anything and was only hurting me, because it was just raising my blood pressure. Finally, I decided that I had to start contacting my representatives through the internet. When I did that, I almost immediately felt better. Now some would say, get out of here Alleyes, you think their really listening to you?? Individually no, but some where they put a little mark by a yes or a no for a given bill. I was one more mark for or against. AND, just as importantly, it made me feel that I was making a difference. I WAS being heard, even if it was just that mark.

                                                            Perhaps the internet can play a role in working towards a solution. The internet is pretty "color agnostic". If people know how to use the internet, know how to set up web sites, that sort of thing, networks of people can be set up fairly quickly and at virtually no cost.

                                                            I think it's the personal self-examination, together with some practical steps that can help us reach our goal.

                                                            Just a few thoughts from this churning head.

                                                            Again, welcome Cruiser9 and looking forward to the sharing of thoughts.
                                                            Alleyes

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                                                              #90
                                                              The Paradigm Problem

                                                              Hi Alleyes:

                                                              One of the things I miss most about the South [I was born in Louisiana] is the "straight-forwardness" of the people there. Unlike California, if someone likes you there, you know it right out. Conversely, if someone doesn't like you, you also know it right out. People in the South don't mince words you lways know exactly who you're dealing with.

                                                              I totally agree with you about the intergenerational problem. For example, when I was a kid, I listened to my parents' stories about their experiences with whites and, boy o boy, if I thought I had troubles, mine were nothing by comparison. My mother's cousin was lynched after having been caught kissing a white girl behind a shed. They found him hanging from a tree with bullet holes all over his body three days after the couple was caught by the girls father and uncle. Needless to say, my mother had a real hatred for anything white and she was convinced that whites were all evil. So i listened to all sorts of stories growing up and it only helped me in as much as I developed the "sixth sense" that many blacks speak of. Without boring you with my whole life's story, the punch line is that my mother no longer has the same outlook on life and is completely different.

                                                              What's the point? The point is that a person's experiences can shape his or her beliefs and values which then get transmitted to the children. Moreover, an impressionable child learns to fear or welcome certain relationships based upon the messages received from the parent and the community. However, I think that only lasts up until the experiences of the child either confirm or contradict those messages. From that point, the child formulates his own beliefs which will either be in congruence with those of his parents or contrary to them.

                                                              I learned from my peers that gays and lesbians were all vile and base and sought only to have as much sex as possible. They carried diseases, spewed hatred toward heterosexuals and were generally the demons of society. Then, I got a job one day where one of my co-managers was a gay male. I found then that every single stereotype that I had latched on to was beyond rediculous. He was/is always very professional in his demeanor, and very pleasant to work with. I have also been approached by gay men who wanted to do the nasty with me and those encounters, let's say brought the Marine in me. But what I deciphered in the end is that gays, lesbians, blacks, whites, feminists etc....are all just like everyone else. Some are crazy and vile, some are wonderful people you'd want to have as life-long buddies.

                                                              For me, I think the solution is to just take people as they are. Accept that people have differences. People have faults. People have great qualities as well. If we we can avoid making blanket sweeping generalizations about any particular group and judge people by their individual merits, we can break through the crappy circle that many of us find ourselves in.

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