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    #91
    Cruiser9,
    From you talking about your mom, it seems that we may be around the same age. That was a bit before my time. I'll tell you an interesting experience in MY life.

    In grades 1-7, I went to an all-white, upper middle class school. At the start of my 8th grade year, in 1968, I transferred to a school that was roughly 50-50. It might have been 60-40 white, but roughly equal. I clearly remember Bobby Kennedy being shot, and on the night Martin Luther King, Jr. was shot I was watching t.v. in the very room i'm sitting in as I write this. Of course, that whole period during those days was very "electric". At any rate, I don't know if it was the night King was shot or maybe a night or so later, but there were t.v. reports of riots in the major U.S. cities: New York, Washington, D.C., Chicago, Los Angeles. In my town, (at that time, about 30,000 people), there were reports of two busloads off trouble makers on their way from Memphis coming to cause trouble in our town. Supposedly, they were led by a guy nicknamed "Sweet Willie Wine". At any rate, in my small town, they declared a curfue and actually called out the national guard. That night, we sat in our house wondering what was going on in town, a short 3 miles away. Of course, I'll never forget the feeling of fear of the future and what it would bring.

    The interesting thing was my experience at school. Now I had followed the civil rights movement along with other current day topics, the Vietnam War, etc. I was definitely pro-civil rights for everyone, anti-vietnam war, yadda yadda yadda. What was interesting was that even though I was pro civil-rights, I found it very difficult down at the new school that was roughly equal in racial mix. The reason was, that there were black kids that didn't like me. Even caused me trouble. Just imagine, me!!! A pro civil-rights white person!!!. After awhile, I was very unhappy and I couldn't reconcile my "political views" with my experience at the school. Now you have to remember I was in junior high school so I had no experience to sort these things out with. After my ninth grade year, everyone had to choose a school to go to for high school, and I went back to the all white, upper middle class one. I didn't choose to go back there solely because of the race thing but i'd be lying if I told you it didn't play a part in the decision.

    When I went back to the all white school and people would say, I'm for equal rights or I"m pro civil rights, etc., I may not always say, (although a few times I did), but I would think, "You don't know what your talking about". And at that time, I didn't even understand why I felt THAT way.

    Over the years, I sorted it out. After many years, I realized that what I was experiencing was the experience of being judged by the color of my skin. I was experiencing the experience of someone not caring about my views on things but judging me because of skin color. I felt the hate coming from those kids. It was an experience that, given my background, I had never experienced before and I truly didn't understand it. Over the years, I had many other interesting experiences along the lines. I lived for 12 years in Washington, D.C. (in D.C. ). But that experience in junior high gave me an education at least as valuable as what I learned in the class room.

    My background and experience is white, upper middle class America. For a very small fraction of time in my life, I experienced a tiny bit of what it's liked to be on the receiving end of hate. I had an escape route, but I know most people do not. It makes me sick.

    Alleyes

    Comment


      #92
      Escape Route - Denied!!!

      Alleyes:

      I am sorry to hear about your experience(s). I do know the depths of the scars one carries at having experienced such things as you have. It may or may not surprise you to know that Blacks often will quarrell amongst themselves. Light skinned blacks vs Paper-bag brown skinned blacks vs dark-skinned blacks; Blacks who are well-to-do vs blacks who are poor. It is truely sad.

      I might venture a guess that the kids that trobled you so most likely reflected what they learned at home. A Child is like the moon that reflects the light of the sun. The moon has no light of it's own but merely reflects light. So too children reflect the values, morals, hatred(s) of their parents. I am sure that had any one of them, or group of them taken the time to get to know you as a person, things mioght have been very different. However, making such an effort necessarily entials stepping outside of the group and standing on one's own feet. The risk is high and particularly at the age level you spoke of.

      Imagine what it must be like for gays and lesbians today in most societies. How many people really have the courage to divorce themselves from "group think" and expose themselves as individuals. Not many I fear. Far to few. This is why I have such disdain for groups made up of individuals that move in the same direction of thought. Bias and bigotry runs rampant when freedom of expression is suppressed and conformity is demanded. I have just been dealing with this very phenominon in another forum which Liandra can attest to. The danger of mass conformity can be ruinous...both for the group, as well as the individual. It is the stuff that cults are made of.

      In any case, I still believe that individual merits should be the sole basis for judgment. In that light, I hope your views of Blacks in general have not been clouded by your experiences in D.C.

      Comment


        #93
        Escape Route Denied!!! (Indeed)

        Originally posted by Cruiser9
        I am sorry to hear about your experience(s). I do know the depths of the scars one carries at having experienced such things as you have. It may or may not surprise you to know that Blacks often will quarrell amongst themselves. Light skinned blacks vs Paper-bag brown skinned blacks vs dark-skinned blacks; Blacks who are well-to-do vs blacks who are poor. It is truely sad.
        Hi Cruiser9! Sorry I was so slow in responding. It doesn't mean I haven't been thinking about it off and on.

        In all honesty, I don't have any real lasting scars because of my experiences in my junior high school years. At the time, I was confused, as I have said, between what I "believed in" (civil rights), and my experience at the school. On one level, that was really my only negative experience because by the time I got to D.C. I had pretty much figured out what the dynamic was when I was in junior high.

        Another very short experience I had was when I was in college. I believe it was my junior year, a new guy moved into the dormatory in a room close to mine. His first name was Seth, and he was a ministirial student. (studying to be a preacher). He had just come to the U.S. and was from a country in Africa (I forget which one). We would meet in the dormintory lobby when both of our schedules were free and while drinking Cokes, discuss the culture that he came from and he asked me questions about our culture. We also talked religion since that's what he was here in the U.S. to study. One night, we had been chatting as usual about different things and then after a brief pause, he said, "Alleyes, why can't the black people and white people get along in the United States?" Of course the first thing that came to mind was a brief explanation of history regarding slavery in the U.S. and then, on and on. Somehow, I knew in my gut that was not what was asking. He was not asking for a history lesson. His eyes looked straight into mine as he waited for an answer. I took maybe 45 seconds before I said, "Seth, I don't know". That was the only true statement I could give. He was asking about the present, not the past. He was also testing me and my reaction to his question.

        Originally posted by Cruiser9
        I am sure that had any one of them, or group of them taken the time to get to know you as a person, things mioght have been very different.
        I have found this to be true Cruiser9, in my years since then. I have found that if there is suspicion or a grudge because of my skin, that if I continue to be friendly and respectful, that the overwhelming majority of people will reflect that friendliness back to me eventually.

        Originally posted by Cruiser9
        However, making such an effort necessarily entials stepping outside of the group and standing on one's own feet.
        May I mention here Rosa Parks. In 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama, she boarded a local transit bus and sat in a "whites only" section of the bus towards the front of the bus. When asked to move to the rear of the bus, (where blacks were supposed to sit), she said, "No". She held her ground and would not reliquish her seat. Rosa Parks definitely stepped outside the group at that time.

        Rosa Parks is the only female to ever lay "in state" in the rotunda of the U.S. Capital building. That indicates what importance that one simple action by one person was, together with supporting civil rights the rest of her life. .

        Just a couple of more thoughts. I think there needs to be better leadership for the black community in congress and among the people in churches and on the streets. Without leadership, it seems to me, the boat is adrift. The second thing I would wish if I had a crystal ball, is that black people who DO make strides economically and such, arean't branded a traitor or selling out to white people, by those less fortunate. In truth, they are only hurting themselves and keeping that cycle of the generations going.

        Enough of my rambling. Just a few thoughts...

        Alleyes

        Comment


          #94
          Hi Cruiser9,
          Well, to be honest, I haven't visited the site much yet. I've only thanked a couple of people for welcoming me and have downloaded a couple of videos (which I enjoyed). I'll try to watch my step, but in situations like this I tend to wait and give people the benefit of the doubt. (Not doubting you, you understand). But anyway, thanks for the info, and I'll see you around the boards.

          ae

          Comment


            #95
            Cruiser9,
            If I'm out of line asking this question please accept my apology, but I've been wondering, in light of your son, did you ever consider moving out of L.A.? I know that bigotry is everywhere, but the L.A.P.D. is not everywhere. I know from past t.v. documentary shows that L.A.P.D. has had a VERY questionable record in the past as far as police brutality goes.

            Thanks,
            Alleyes

            Comment


              #96
              Your Servant !

              Dear Gabrielle,

              Originally posted by gabrielle
              ok, my curiosity is piqued... am i allowed to ask what site?
              I'm 99.9 % sure they are talking about IFM ... " I Feel Myself "
              Which I believe is a spin off of ISM ... which you know about ...
              There is a link on ISM to IFM.

              Liandra is mentioned in the above posts ... and is the " Face " of IFM on their Main Page.

              See ... I know a few things ...

              TowelBoy

              Comment


                #97
                Back To Feminism

                I'm using one of Mrs. Roops quotes but I'm not trying to pick on her. Many girls will look at the future mates income as security and lifestyle of their future. On Gracies' "uh Me Again" thread, Mrs. Roops made the following statement to Gracie:



                Actually, it's a common thing girls do, even today and it often leads to financial hardship on the girl, if she and her mate get a divorce.

                The question(s) then might be: 1) Is this sound advice, 2) Do most girls today, unlike yesteryears, see the need for more education/skills, than girls past have had?

                Thanks,
                Alleyes

                Comment


                  #98
                  Well, my comment was made tongue in cheek, but I think that all couples, after the initial physical attraction and personality assessment go through a subconscious check list with regards to class, education, IQ and indirectly, earnings capacity. I was talking with some work-mates about this a few weeks ago. To some extent females will be more interested in guys who are on a roughly equal or higher earnings potential. It works the other way too. Some guys are put off by women who may be earning more than them. One ex of mine wanted me to give up my degree course. I think he realised that once qualified my earnings would eventually outstrip his by two to three times. Interestingly enough, I know of several cases whre a men reluctantly gave up a pretty girl-friend because as good as she was in the sack he could not see her as good wife and mother material, whatever that means. Admittedly these are all generalisations and there are exceptions. In my own case, Roops and I were a mis-matched couple. When we first met, he was a mid-thirties corporate suite earning obscene amounts of money working for an American aerospace firm (his field was smart weapons) whereas I was a working-class hippy socialist student who believed in the state enforced redistribution of wealth. In normal circumstances we wouldn't ordinarily give each other the time of day!!!

                  In answer to Alleye's question I think all school-girls take educational and career opportunities more aggressively than they used to. Certainly young women are more independently minded than they were. The problem is that nurturing of children is still seen as mainly a female role (and rightly so) and this can impact on the womens career progression. I now work part-time because I want to be around our children during out of school hours as much as possible. I do not begrudge society that my earnings capacity is reduced because it is my perceived lot to exercise my motherly responsibilities. For one thing I love being with our kids and economically it makes sense that I and not hubby works part-time as he has a greater earnings potential. Hmm, surely I didn't fall for Roops 'cos I knew I could afford to work part-time when the children were born? Nah that would be shallow of me!!

                  Anyway I'm rambling and I'd rather concentrate on my game plan to become the third Lady McCartney as there appears to be a vacancy. OK, hubby has a few bob stashed away but Macca is worth a lot MORE!! So Pauly love, if you are reading this, I've made a list of what you would get if you make me wifey number 3!!!!
                  1. I'm a veritable little sex-pot
                  2. free dental treatment*
                  3. Er..thats it!!
                  *Not including white fillings, white back crowns and certain treatments. Visa, Mastercard and all major cards accepted. Join our Denplan. Details on request.

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Originally posted by Mrs Roops
                    ...I'd rather concentrate on my game plan to become the third Lady McCartney as there appears to be a vacancy...
                    I spoke to my old buddy Paul (affectionately known to his Liverpudlian friends as Paulie Mac), who was quite interested in your offer, especially part 2, being as a maintaining a charming smile is very important to him.
                    Unfortunately your description of your history as "a working-class hippy socialist student who believed in the state enforced redistribution of wealth" just soured his day. It seems Paul has had enough of forced redistribution of wealth just recently.

                    I, however, am available for whatever you'd like to do to me. Just don't tell my wife.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Mrs. Roops
                      he was a mid-thirties corporate suite earning obscene amounts of money working for an American aerospace firm (his field was smart weapons) whereas I was a working-class hippy socialist student who believed in the state enforced redistribution of wealth. In normal circumstances we wouldn't ordinarily give each other the time of day!!!
                      Well, something in that situation, that might come up in my head if I was Mr. Roops would be, "does she have the social skills" to carry herself well in the social situations that I must go to related to my work and my friends. It's a terrible thing I know to think like that, but I must confess that I have. I mean, you don't want to get hooked up with someone that's going to embarrase you in front of your boss with a social gaffe!!!"

                      I don't worry about that now because I'm older but earlier in my life I did.

                      I have known women who have been married and lived in very upper middle class situations and then after a divorce were in really bad shape financially because they never got the degree/skills to support themselves once she was seperated from her husband. That also probably keeps some wives with their husbands far longer than they would like, even though their miserable, because they know whenever they leave, that she's looking at a low paying job and that's a difficult choice for her to make.

                      BTW, Mrs. Roops, I knew you made your statement as a quip, but there are people who really think that way and that's why I borrowed your post.

                      Alleyes

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Mrs Roops
                        [*]free dental treatment*[*]Er..thats it!![/LIST]*Not including white fillings, white back crowns and certain treatments. Visa, Mastercard and all major cards accepted. Join our Denplan. Details on request.
                        No completely free dental care, even for Paul your new husband?!!!!! I'm shocked.

                        But I am sure that Paul has his own fine dentist that'll he'll want to stick with -- one that I'm sure he's kept in business nicely all these years, given his wealth and, possibly, early years of less than stellar dental care.

                        Comment


                          Ok, I give, after Linda McCartney died, Paul married another girl (who looked remarkably like Linda). Has something happened to her??

                          Thanks for filling me in.

                          ae

                          Comment


                            Apart from having one leg, she and he have separated.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by alleyes1
                              Well, something in that situation, that might come up in my head if I was Mr. Roops would be, "does she have the social skills" to carry herself well in the social situations that I must go to related to my work and my friends. It's a terrible thing I know to think like that, but I must confess that I have. I mean, you don't want to get hooked up with someone that's going to embarrase you in front of your boss with a social gaffe!!!"
                              Ha!! I could tell you some very interesting stories about big American businesses corporate social events!!! Nevertheless, I never embarrassed Roops. If the occasion demanded it, I would don the de rigueur Little Black Dress and act with complete propriety!!!

                              Originally posted by alleyes1
                              I have known women who have been married and lived in very upper middle class situations and then after a divorce were in really bad shape financially because they never got the degree/skills to support themselves once she was separated from her husband. That also probably keeps some wives with their husbands far longer than they would like, even though their miserable, because they know whenever they leave, that she's looking at a low paying job and that's a difficult choice for her to make.
                              Interesting you should say that ‘cos there were two landmark court cases in the UK about that yesterday. I think the problem you refer to is more of an issue with wives of low and middle-income earners. God forbid if anything should happen to us but I have the ability to earn a salary well above the UK average if I wanted to. When we became engaged, I considered quitting my degree course but Roops put his foot down and insisted I qualified.

                              Originally posted by jseas
                              No completely free dental care, even for Paul your new husband?!!!!! I'm shocked.
                              Hey, I have overheads ya know!!

                              Originally posted by alleyes1
                              Ok, I give, after Linda McCartney died, Paul married another girl (who looked remarkably like Linda). Has something happened to her??
                              Hello?? Where have you been?? Yes Macca has now separated, what a surprise, I mean, what was he thinking of in marrying a woman more self obsessed than I am?? Everyone could see that there were going to be problems with the relationship. Actually the only thing that Heather Mills had in common with Linda was blonde hair. The two women were as different as chalk and cheese.

                              The latest is that Sir Paul has allegedly offered Heather £25 million for custody of their daughter, all rather sad and unedifying.


                              Comment


                                Is heather mills the mad woman that throws red paint on rich ladies furs?

                                Anyway, on the topic of women marrying men for money, I think it's a bad choice, but both men and women covet money, and connections that will get them more of it. If women make that choice and then find themselves financially in the shit one day...well they made their bed, they should either lie in it or get the raw materials they need and make a bed more to their liking. If you choose lovers based on bank balance it's treating the whole "love thing" like a business decision, and if you make a bad business choice and end up with nothing you should have to deal with that as anyone else would. Investing your whole adult life in being the dependent of someone else is a risky investment in my book.

                                However, it's different when there are kids involved, if a woman has been a stay at home mum raising the children and doing all that malarky and hubby leaves her or is such a shit she leaves him, well he should definitely continue to support her aswell as the children, unless she doesn't want his money or support...which is how I would feel...I'm not making much sense eh?

                                Comment


                                  Unfortunatley some women do marry for the money, I find this very sad, as there is a lot more to life then money.
                                  To me I feel they sell themselves out for a few mere materialistic values, that can be here today and gone tomorrow. I have little respect for women that do this

                                  Comment


                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by stoneyyy
                                      Unfortunatley some women do marry for the money, I find this very sad, as there is a lot more to life then money.
                                      To me I feel they sell themselves out for a few mere materialistic values, that can be here today and gone tomorrow. I have little respect for women that do this
                                      I totally agree, but there are two sides to that coin. Plenty of men marry women for less than scrupulous reasons, and I have little respect for men that marry trophy wives, and then pass them over when something better is presented to them. However I doubt whether either of these types gives a damn whether I respect them or not and are perfectly happy conducting life the way they see fit. Each to their own.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by liandra
                                        I totally agree, but there are two sides to that coin. Plenty of men marry women for less than scrupulous reasons, and I have little respect for men that marry trophy wives, and then pass them over when something better is presented to them. However I doubt whether either of these types gives a damn whether I respect them or not and are perfectly happy conducting life the way they see fit. Each to their own.
                                        Oh yes i agree liandra your very right there too, but as a friendly question, being a beautiful and intelligent woman as you are would then you be liable to become a trophy wife?

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by stoneyyy
                                          Oh yes i agree liandra your very right there too, but as a friendly question, being a beautiful and intelligent woman as you are would then you be liable to become a trophy wife?
                                          Um...no I don't think so...apart from having drawn all over the trophy with permanent marker...which isn't usual conducive to acheiving trophy wife appeal...I'm too much of a pain in arse but I make up for that in other areas

                                          Comment


                                            Originally posted by liandra
                                            but I make up for that in other areas
                                            please explain

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by liandra
                                              Is heather mills the mad woman that throws red paint on rich ladies furs?
                                              Whilst she is very passionate about wildlife conservation and is a vocal anti-fur campaigner, Mrs McCartney Mills has never pulled off a paint throwing incident. Like her or love her, one has to admire her resoluteness and the way she dealt with her disability. Some commentators have suggested her motivation in marrying Macca was not money but fame and the attention she could bring to her causes.

                                              Apropos the whole trophy wife thing; in the early days of our relationship we both received a lot of stick about this, mainly from relatives from both our families who were probably articulating a genuine concern. Fifteen plus years later that genuine concern has given way to acceptance, in any case our age difference is not so much an issue as it was when we first met. Also, whilst I am not a leader/pioneer in my field of work I am successful in my own right.

                                              Nowadays, we sometimes hear of people who either through bigotry or through sheer ignorance and stupidity make snide remarks to people who know us. Not sure why people who have no idea about us are motivated to try and second guess our situation. Hubby thinks its jealousy and there may be something in that. It has not gone unnoticed amongst our circle of friends that the people who criticise our relationship are pretty much dysfunctional themselves with regards to their own relationships. I may appear bitter, but we had to take a lot of crap in the early years, however I do derive a lot of satisfaction that we have proved them wrong.

                                              Comment


                                                how the trophy wives are created

                                                Hello from the USA!

                                                Most women I know hate their bodies. They cruelly judge themselves (not to mention other women!!) on the basis of appearance. The corporate media incessantly promotes excessive cosmetics, extreme dieting, depilation, and even cosmetic surgery as a way for women to 'fix' their bodies. Just take a look at a women's magazine sometime.

                                                Women who constantly obsess over their bodies tend to be shallow and undeveloped as people. This is where the trophy wives are created.

                                                Men don't help by buying in to the Hollywood beauty ideal. In my misspent youth ('70s and '80s), I remember lusting after glamour models with full bushes, tan-lines, and NO plastic parts. Personally, I find the porn-stars, celebrities, professional models, and other plastic bimbos promoted as 'beautiful' (a la Pamela Anderson), to be pathetic and unattractive. Why are all women expected to pursue the same artificial look?

                                                Abby Winters is refreshing since it celebrates the unique, natural, physical beauty of each of its models, and, in the best shoots, reveals something special about their personalities.

                                                This is my very first post and I'm enjoying the site very much!

                                                Comment


                                                  Welcome aboard Zepfan, Shortly you will get the formal welcome by Mr Luxman

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by Mrs Roops

                                                    Nowadays, we sometimes hear of people who either through bigotry or through sheer ignorance and stupidity make snide remarks to people who know us. Not sure why people who have no idea about us are motivated to try and second guess our situation. Hubby thinks its jealousy and there may be something in that. It has not gone unnoticed amongst our circle of friends that the people who criticise our relationship are pretty much dysfunctional themselves with regards to their own relationships.

                                                    Isn't it all to do with projection, and the way we tend to project the negative aspects of our character traits, and insecurities, onto others,whilst crediting ourselves with the positive aspects. ?

                                                    Val is currently working towards a unified theory , but I've always thought this waspish little comment sums it up quite well.


                                                    She likes herself, yet others hates,
                                                    For that which in herself she prizes;
                                                    And, while she laughs at them, forgets,
                                                    She is the thing that she despises.

                                                    William Congreve (1670-1729)

                                                    Comment


                                                      Originally posted by calliope
                                                      Isn't it all to do with projection, and the way we tend to project the negative aspects of our character traits, and insecurities, onto others,whilst crediting ourselves with the positive aspects. ?

                                                      Val is currently working towards a unified theory , but I've always thought this waspish little comment sums it up quite well.


                                                      She likes herself, yet others hates,
                                                      For that which in herself she prizes;
                                                      And, while she laughs at them, forgets,
                                                      She is the thing that she despises.

                                                      William Congreve (1670-1729)
                                                      Very true. Much of it rooted in fear; or fear of the unknown.

                                                      And the less you know through experience the the higher chance the projection of ones eye will be narrowly focused. Or rather, one projects that narrow knowledge upon that person or thing.

                                                      The eye is the fountain of projection...
                                                      Last edited by Techman; 27 May 2006, 10:14 AM.

                                                      Comment


                                                        Originally posted by gracie_w
                                                        Thats right, its time to talk about Feminism.

                                                        For ages now feminism has been unpopular in girls our age because of the stigma attached; being a hairy pitted stinky dyke with more bisep strength than sexual appeal. Do you consider yourself a feminist? What do you think feminism has to offer women of today when women are allowed to vote, work and essentially follow a career path? Do you think women have achieved everything there is to achieve for equality?

                                                        What about pornography? Or stripping? Or prostitution? Are these an example of women being used by a chauvenist system, or are they using male desire to their own advantage? Is that then empowerment?

                                                        Hehe I know thats a lot of questions but I think its about time we discussed it! Whats your opinion on the F word?
                                                        Just before World war one. There was a women group name the Suffragettes. Who try to he women the rights to vote and to work.
                                                        To me that what feminisn is all about, be just as good as a man. And have the some rights as a man does.
                                                        But there are some feminisns just get in.
                                                        If one thing, there would say Women should not be stipper or do pornography things for me.
                                                        But then there would say it ok if a man to stip or do porn for women.
                                                        I dont not understand why there called them self feminisn?

                                                        Comment


                                                          Originally posted by leegracie1972
                                                          But then there would say it ok if a man to stip or do porn for women.
                                                          I dont not understand why there called them self feminisn?
                                                          If I understand you lee, my answer is that usually people who are fighting for a cause are on one side or the other. I know this sounds crazy but those women who say that they are feminist probably wouldn't articulate any cause for men because their main message would be diluted (at least in their eyes).

                                                          For me, the real deal is equal opportunity, and same pay for same work, and no penalty for maternity leave, and that sort of thing.

                                                          Let me say that I didn't mean above that feminist are all against men, I'm just saying that ANYONE who is strongly on one side or the other on a give issue, may not articluate their feelings on another side of an issue for fear that their main issue might be compromised.

                                                          Alleyes

                                                          Comment


                                                            What an interesting topic this is! Very thoughtful responses all around.

                                                            Comment


                                                              Non-Comprimising View

                                                              Originally posted by alleyes1

                                                              Let me say that I didn't mean above that feminist are all against men, I'm just saying that ANYONE who is strongly on one side or the other on a give issue, may not articluate their feelings on another side of an issue for fear that their main issue might be compromised.

                                                              Alleyes
                                                              Alleyes:

                                                              I agree with your statement. I too think that fear is the main issue. And this goes back to what I was saying above about individuals who fear stepping outside of the group. A white person who outwardly holds racist views while inwardly struglling yet suppressing with the gravity of stupidity that racism entails is most likely fearful of standing up and being fingered as a turn-coat. The same with blacks and other minorities. Most people have a need to belong to something bigger than themselves, a group, a movement, a circle of friends. That need can be so a powerful that it can cause a person to deny himself/herself the right to express his/her own individuality. That is why I always say, "There are some things a man should never allow himself to become and it is up to each person to decide what that is".

                                                              Femisim is a very good thing. In my mind, feminism has nothing to do with a woman being "as good as a man". What does "as good as" mean anyway. "As good as" in what area? I think feminism in its truest form recognizes that women ARE just as capable a men. That women should be afforded the same opportunities, accesses, compensations, etc... as men is really a sad and rediculous argument only in the sense that it shouldn't even BE an argument. It should be a given that equality among the sexes is realized naturally....without thinking about it....like breathing.

                                                              Moreover, I think feminsm, again in it's truest form is not void of understanding that there are differences between the sexes. However, those differences, whatever they are, do not grant a license for one or the other to depleat or suppress the talents and/or contributions of the other. Unfortunately, that is exactly what men have done for long time and those feminists who are rational, thoughtful and above all else honest with themselves, seek to maintain a sense of balance. A strong and truely self-assured feminist, and they are sadly very few, can without fear stand up against injustice regardless of whom falls victim to it. Such people can not and should not be dismissed. Rather, they should be admired and lauded for thier courage. It takes no gumption to be tenacious. Anyone can be tenacious. It takes an iron will to see clearly and act, both in words and deeds, with simple fairness.

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